Going Postal - A Clacks Towers question

[Johnny Bravo]

Hello all, Im not sure if those is a potential spoiler, but I'll put the
warning in, just in case.


P

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E


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P

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In the latest DW novel, GP, some time is spent with the crew of Clacks Tower
181. One of the members in this group is a young girl nicknamed Princess,
age 13. She is a very capable worker who doesn't need supervision, yet a
more senior member of staff, 'Grandad' a 26 year old is always there when
she was in the tower.
It's mentioned that Princess always wondered why he was around, and didn't
work it out till much later.

After discussion with some fellow DW fans, we were wondering if this was an
oblique reference to child predators on the internet.

If we are reading too much into this, we wouldn't mind being told, but we
are curious to see if this was intended.

Thanks for any help and feedback.

[redtiger]

Post by Johnny Bravo
Hello all, Im not sure if those is a potential spoiler, but I'll put the
warning in, just in case.
P
O
S
S
I
B
L
E
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
In the latest DW novel, GP, some time is spent with the crew of Clacks Tower
181. One of the members in this group is a young girl nicknamed Princess,
age 13. She is a very capable worker who doesn't need supervision, yet a
more senior member of staff, 'Grandad' a 26 year old is always there when
she was in the tower.
It's mentioned that Princess always wondered why he was around, and didn't
work it out till much later.
After discussion with some fellow DW fans, we were wondering if this was an
oblique reference to child predators on the internet.
If we are reading too much into this, we wouldn't mind being told, but we
are curious to see if this was intended.
Thanks for any help and feedback.

My reading of that section was more innocent, given that the clacks is more
an early version of RW telegrams and is under the control of one company
with a specific purpose of message transmission. The books statement that
'Grandad' always made sure she was never alone with any of the younger boys
is more to do with the fact that he is aware Princess is approaching an age
where boys will start to become interesting. Plus, the boys are already at
that age. There isn't the implication that the boys are sexual predators,
it's just that boys of a certain age might start thinking with their
hormones and Grandad is aware of this even if Princess is a bit young to
realise.

Anthony

[Terry Pratchett]

In message

Post by redtiger

Post by Johnny Bravo
Hello all, Im not sure if those is a potential spoiler, but I'll put the
warning in, just in case.
P
O
S
S
I
B
L
E
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
In the latest DW novel, GP, some time is spent with the crew of Clacks Tower
181. One of the members in this group is a young girl nicknamed Princess,
age 13. She is a very capable worker who doesn't need supervision, yet a
more senior member of staff, 'Grandad' a 26 year old is always there when
she was in the tower.
It's mentioned that Princess always wondered why he was around, and didn't
work it out till much later.
After discussion with some fellow DW fans, we were wondering if this was an
oblique reference to child predators on the internet.
If we are reading too much into this, we wouldn't mind being told, but we
are curious to see if this was intended.
Thanks for any help and feedback.

My reading of that section was more innocent, given that the clacks is more
an early version of RW telegrams and is under the control of one company
with a specific purpose of message transmission. The books statement that
'Grandad' always made sure she was never alone with any of the younger boys
is more to do with the fact that he is aware Princess is approaching an age
where boys will start to become interesting. Plus, the boys are already at
that age. There isn't the implication that the boys are sexual predators,
it's just that boys of a certain age might start thinking with their
hormones and Grandad is aware of this even if Princess is a bit young to
realise.

That was certainly my intention. Grandad is simply. and maybe clumsily,
acting as a self-appointed chaperone. I find the original suggestion
mildly worrying, given that that the book clearly says that he tends to
be around when she's *not* alone in the tower. But that's the way of the
world, maybe..

[Jade]

redtiger writes

Post by redtiger

Post by Johnny Bravo
Hello all, Im not sure if those is a potential spoiler, but I'll put the
warning in, just in case.
P
O
S
S
I
B
L
E
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
In the latest DW novel, GP, some time is spent with the crew of Clacks Tower
181. One of the members in this group is a young girl nicknamed Princess,
age 13. She is a very capable worker who doesn't need supervision, yet a
more senior member of staff, 'Grandad' a 26 year old is always there when
she was in the tower.
It's mentioned that Princess always wondered why he was around, and didn't
work it out till much later.
After discussion with some fellow DW fans, we were wondering if this was an
oblique reference to child predators on the internet.
If we are reading too much into this, we wouldn't mind being told, but we
are curious to see if this was intended.
Thanks for any help and feedback.

My reading of that section was more innocent, given that the clacks is more
an early version of RW telegrams and is under the control of one company
with a specific purpose of message transmission. The books statement that
'Grandad' always made sure she was never alone with any of the younger boys
is more to do with the fact that he is aware Princess is approaching an age
where boys will start to become interesting. Plus, the boys are already at
that age. There isn't the implication that the boys are sexual predators,
it's just that boys of a certain age might start thinking with their
hormones and Grandad is aware of this even if Princess is a bit young to
realise.

That was certainly my intention. Grandad is simply. and maybe clumsily,
acting as a self-appointed chaperone. I find the original suggestion
mildly worrying, given that that the book clearly says that he tends to
be around when she's *not* alone in the tower. But that's the way of the
world, maybe..

Thank you! I was doing the traditional "I have a new
Pratchett book, nothing else in my life matters, I must find
out how it ends as soon as possible" first reading. That line
worried me as it went past, so I went back and had another go
at the paragraph. I still couldn't figure it out (he was there
all the time, or always when she was there, or when she wasn't
there??) so I just left it. (But uneasily - I guess like
Johnny Bravo my impression was of something sinister, but that
didn't fit with the approving tone of the paragraph)

But this is nice, and fits completely with what I remember
of that paragraph, even though I couldn't make sense of it for myself.

(I've still only read it that once, and it's
now doing the rounds of all my keen but penurious friends).

Jade

[Len Oil]

Post by Johnny Bravo
Hello all, Im not sure if those is a potential spoiler, but I'll put the
warning in, just in case.
P
O
S
S
I
B
L
E
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
In the latest DW novel, GP, some time is spent with the crew of Clacks Tower
181. One of the members in this group is a young girl nicknamed Princess,
age 13. She is a very capable worker who doesn't need supervision, yet a
more senior member of staff, 'Grandad' a 26 year old is always there when
she was in the tower.
It's mentioned that Princess always wondered why he was around, and didn't
work it out till much later.
After discussion with some fellow DW fans, we were wondering if this was an
oblique reference to child predators on the internet.

I'd say that it is more that Grandad has a /few/ more years of wisdom
than the younger lads, but also the knowledge and experience of what
they are, or soon might be, thinking about. Effectively, he's taking it
upon himself to act as chaperone, not crowding Princess, and certainly
not contriving to be alone with her, but always being 'imminently there'
to dampen the temptations visited upon Princess's contemporaries.

--
Terry Pratchett fans | I ku,
Congregate in this locale - | You ku,
Hi I am Len Oil | We all ku for Haiku

[Johnny Bravo]

Thanks for all the responses. Im glad the intent wasn't as dark as we
initially thought.

Its interesting that some of you consider the clacks as a form of telegraph.
I have always thought of them as equivalent to email and the internet due to
phrases such as shifting code, hackers and the ability to send images.

[ANDREW ROBERT BREEN]

Post by Johnny Bravo
Thanks for all the responses. Im glad the intent wasn't as dark as we
initially thought.
Its interesting that some of you consider the clacks as a form of telegraph.
I have always thought of them as equivalent to email and the internet due to
phrases such as shifting code, hackers and the ability to send images.

There's a wonderful book out there one the telegraph called "The Victorian
Internet" - /strongly/ recommended reading, Yes, back in the Victorian era
they had hackers, they shifted code - and the ability to send images is
only a minor extension of what the optical telegraph of Regency times
could have done - given a bit of evolution (which I suspect was Pterry's
starting point for the clacks - how would the optical telegraph have
developed in a world with no electricity[1])

[1] Apart from the Igors, and they know what it's for and you can't have
it [2]

[2] Which is shades[3] of the BOFH: "I know what this ssytem is for, and
you can't have it"

[3] Not those shades

[4] Unreferenced footnote. Core dumped.

[Alec Cawley]

Post by ANDREW ROBERT BREEN

Post by Johnny Bravo
Thanks for all the responses. Im glad the intent wasn't as dark as we
initially thought.
Its interesting that some of you consider the clacks as a form of telegraph.
I have always thought of them as equivalent to email and the internet due to
phrases such as shifting code, hackers and the ability to send images.

There's a wonderful book out there one the telegraph called "The Victorian
Internet" - /strongly/ recommended reading, Yes, back in the Victorian era
they had hackers, they shifted code - and the ability to send images is
only a minor extension of what the optical telegraph of Regency times
could have done - given a bit of evolution (which I suspect was Pterry's
starting point for the clacks - how would the optical telegraph have
developed in a world with no electricity

Digital transmission was not invented in the Victorian period - but the
analog Fax was. They could have sent faxes. And the rest - yes, it is
very realistic. Particularly including the Overhead - a necessary part
of any communications system.

[Paul Cooke]

Post by Alec Cawley

Post by ANDREW ROBERT BREEN

Post by Johnny Bravo
Thanks for all the responses. Im glad the intent wasn't as dark as we
initially thought.
Its interesting that some of you consider the clacks as a form of
telegraph. I have always thought of them as equivalent to email and the
internet due to phrases such as shifting code, hackers and the ability to
send images.

There's a wonderful book out there one the telegraph called "The Victorian
Internet" - /strongly/ recommended reading, Yes, back in the Victorian era
they had hackers, they shifted code - and the ability to send images is
only a minor extension of what the optical telegraph of Regency times
could have done - given a bit of evolution (which I suspect was Pterry's
starting point for the clacks - how would the optical telegraph have
developed in a world with no electricity

Digital transmission was not invented in the Victorian period - but the
analog Fax was. They could have sent faxes. And the rest - yes, it is
very realistic. Particularly including the Overhead - a necessary part
of any communications system.

excuse me... Wheatstone devised a method of communicating between signal
boxes that was "digital". Current was switched onto various pairs of wires
and the resulting magnetic field induced in coils in the receiver would
cause pointer needles to point one way for one polarity and the other way
for the opposite current direction. By arranging the coils and the switches
in a pattern, he was able to get the pointers to point to various letters
depending upon which switch combination was made.

<http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Charles_Wheatstone>

|The five-needle telegraph, which was mainly, if not entirely, due to
|Wheatstone, was similar to that of Schilling, and based on the principle
|enunciated by Ampere -- that is to say, the current was sent into the line
|by completing the circuit of the battery with a make and break key, and at
|the other end it passed through a coil of wire surrounding a magnetic
|needle free to turn round its centre. According as one pole of the battery
|or the other was applied to the line by means of the key, the current
|deflected the needle to one side or the other. There were five separate
|circuits actuating five different needles. The latter were pivoted in rows
|across the middle of a dial shaped like a diamond, and having the letters
|of the alphabet arranged upon it in such a way that a letter was literally
|pointed out by the current deflecting two of the needles towards it.
|
|An experimental line, with a sixth return wire, was run between the Euston
|terminus and Camden Town station of the London and North Western Railway on
|July 25, 1837. The actual distance was only one and a half mile (2.4 km),
|but spare wire had been inserted in the circuit to increase its length. It
|was late in the evening before the trial took place. Mr. Cooke was in
|charge at Camden Town, while Mr. Robert Stephenson and other gentlemen
|looked on; and Wheatstone sat at his instrument in a dingy little room, lit
|by a tallow candle, near the booking-office at Euston. Wheatstone sent the
|first message, to which Cooke replied, and 'never,' said Wheatstone, 'did I
|feel such a tumultuous sensation before, as when, all alone in the still
|room, I heard the needles click, and as I spelled the words, I felt all the
|magnitude of the invention pronounced to be practicable beyond cavil or
|dispute.'
|
|In spite of this trial, however, the directors of the railway treated the
|'new-fangled' invention with indifference, and requested its removal. In
|July, 1839, however, it was favoured by the Great Western Railway, and a
|line erected from the Paddington terminus to West Drayton station, a
|distance of thirteen miles (21 km). Part of the wire was laid underground
|at first, but subsequently all of it was raised on posts along the line.
|Their circuit was eventually extended to Slough in 1841, and was publicly
|exhibited at Paddington as a marvel of science, which could transmit fifty
|signals a distance of 280,000 miles in a minute (7,500 km/s). The price of
|admission was a shilling (£0.05).
|

here's a better article on the five-needle system with pictures and diagrams
showing how the needles were coded.

<http://chem.ch.huji.ac.il/~eugeniik/history/cooke.html>

[g***@hotmail.com]

Hi there,

Post by Alec Cawley
Digital transmission was not invented in the Victorian period - but the
analog Fax was. They could have sent faxes.

Alexander Bain was granted a patent for what was, effectively, a fax
machine that could send images over long distances in 1842.

Adam Hart Davies demonstrated a version of it in one of his programmes
a couple of years ago.

I remember watching utterly gobsmacked!

Cheers,
Graham.

[John]

Post by ANDREW ROBERT BREEN

Post by Johnny Bravo
Thanks for all the responses. Im glad the intent wasn't as dark as we
initially thought.
Its interesting that some of you consider the clacks as a form of telegraph.
I have always thought of them as equivalent to email and the internet due to
phrases such as shifting code, hackers and the ability to send images.

There's a wonderful book out there one the telegraph called "The Victorian
Internet" - /strongly/ recommended reading, Yes, back in the Victorian era
they had hackers, they shifted code

There were also chatter and some romances between operators at different
stations. It's just so damn... human.

[gipsy boy]

Post by Johnny Bravo
Thanks for all the responses. Im glad the intent wasn't as dark as we
initially thought.
Its interesting that some of you consider the clacks as a form of telegraph.
I have always thought of them as equivalent to email and the internet due to
phrases such as shifting code, hackers and the ability to send images.

I think they're in some ways definitely the DW equivalent of our
internet. I hope I'm not making this up but I thought a lot of the
'smoking gnu' rebellist group etc., had to do with Microsoft and their
lack of security when it came to the clack's 'hostile command-messages'
- which made me think of all those worm attacks last year.
And the way their monopolistic behaviour is causing more problems and
stagnation in computer science than ever. As opposed to the free
software foundations, such as GNU ('Gnu is Not Unix').
Even if this wasn't Pterry's immediate intention, I still think it's a
great reference and it's one of the reasons why I enjoyed the book so
much. So please don't take that away from me :)

[Richard Corfield]

Post by gipsy boy
'smoking gnu' rebellist group etc., had to do with Microsoft and their
lack of security when it came to the clack's 'hostile command-messages'
- which made me think of all those worm attacks last year.
And the way their monopolistic behaviour is causing more problems and
stagnation in computer science than ever. As opposed to the free
software foundations, such as GNU ('Gnu is Not Unix').

I've just finished reading it. i've also managed to find an article
that Google Groups was willing to let me follow up to!

It is easy to look for comparisons between the characters and the
current villans in the computer industry. Reacher's talk about blaming
the denial of service attack on the post office sounds just like Darl
McBride blaming the failure of his web site on Linux activists. We
don't know whether McBride was right or not, but these accusations are
continuing without evidence today, even by people not in a position to
actually get any evidence about what could easily be a web site
glitch, and could easily be prevented on a well built site.

I also noted some behaviours in the book that may better reflect
politicians than encumbent monopolists, wondering if Terry was
commenting on the upcoming UK elections and the likely strategies used
by our political parties to win votes.

I like Terry's usual stance on corporate-speak (The Mission Statement)
and Moist's response to the question about Promoting Diversity. My
wife has had to go on "Diversity Training" to learn how to appreciate
fellow workers from different cultures. Most people I know (if not
all) just get on with it without thinking about it.

All in all though, an excellent book, even if the Tolkien references
were less than subtle :-) and was that the odd National Lottery slogan
in there?

- Richard

PS1: [wondering if Adrian (Mad Drongo? Depressed Moose?) and Alex (Mad
Al Blue?) are people I know]

PS2: Whatever happened to ^L or ROT-13 for spoilers? The form feed
character (^L) used to be a reliable way to ask newsreaders to ask
their users to press enter before showing the rest of the article. OK,
I suppose that won't work on the web. ROT-13 is just ROT-13. Neither
are used any more.

[bewtifulfreak]

Post by Richard Corfield
PS2: Whatever happened to ^L or ROT-13 for spoilers? The form feed
character (^L) used to be a reliable way to ask newsreaders to ask
their users to press enter before showing the rest of the article. OK,
I suppose that won't work on the web. ROT-13 is just ROT-13. Neither
are used any more.

That reminds me, in various posts, I've seen a lot of ^ with letters,
sometimes more than one - e.g.^w^w - and I've no idea what it means. Anyone
care to educate me on this one? Is it related to the above, or something
totally different?

--
Ann

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

[Alec Cawley]

Post by bewtifulfreak

Post by Richard Corfield
PS2: Whatever happened to ^L or ROT-13 for spoilers? The form feed
character (^L) used to be a reliable way to ask newsreaders to ask
their users to press enter before showing the rest of the article. OK,
I suppose that won't work on the web. ROT-13 is just ROT-13. Neither
are used any more.

^L does not work with a number of newsreaders, so conceals nothing.
Another group of newsreaders have no ROT-13 encode or decode capability,
so that writers cannot encode it, and readers cannot understand it
without tedious work with pen and paper. Both derive from the Unix
community and hence are regarded (not, IMO, correctly) as intolerably
geeky and inappropriate to the new world of GUIs and "user
friendliness".

Post by bewtifulfreak
That reminds me, in various posts, I've seen a lot of ^ with letters,
sometimes more than one - e.g.^w^w - and I've no idea what it means. Anyone
care to educate me on this one? Is it related to the above, or something
totally different?

The ^ before a letter is a way of representing the use of the control
key, so ^W can be represented as <ctrl-W> and means holding CTRL down
while pressing W. On a number of text editors (mostly from before the
days of Windows), ^H meant delete the last character and ^W meant delete
the last word. This can be used to represent a slip of the tongue, as in
"Tony Bliar^H^H^Hair and his Spin Doctors^W^WTrusted Advisers", which
suggest that I first mis-typed Blair as Bliar, and then correct Spin
Doctors to Trusted Advisers.

[bewtifulfreak]

Post by Alec Cawley

Post by bewtifulfreak
That reminds me, in various posts, I've seen a lot of ^ with letters,
sometimes more than one - e.g.^w^w - and I've no idea what it means.
Anyone care to educate me on this one? Is it related to the above,
or something totally different?

The ^ before a letter is a way of representing the use of the control
key, so ^W can be represented as <ctrl-W> and means holding CTRL down
while pressing W. On a number of text editors (mostly from before the
days of Windows), ^H meant delete the last character and ^W meant delete
the last word. This can be used to represent a slip of the tongue, as
in "Tony Bliar^H^H^Hair and his Spin Doctors^W^WTrusted Advisers",
which suggest that I first mis-typed Blair as Bliar, and then correct
Spin
Doctors to Trusted Advisers.

Ahhhh, thank you very much for solving a long-standing mystery for me! I'll
now have a clue what people are on about next time I see that sort of thing.
:)

--
Ann

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak

[Kylinn]

Post by Alec Cawley
Another group of newsreaders have no ROT-13 encode or decode
capability, so that writers cannot encode it, and readers
cannot understand it without tedious work with pen and paper.

Or the simple expedient of copy/pasting the words into
one of the Web's free translators, such as those at
http://decode.org/
http://www.degraeve.com/translator.php
http://www.cs.utk.edu/~cjohnson/computing/javascript/round_rot13.ph
p

Ky

[Alec Cawley]

Post by Kylinn

Post by Alec Cawley
Another group of newsreaders have no ROT-13 encode or decode
capability, so that writers cannot encode it, and readers
cannot understand it without tedious work with pen and paper.

Or the simple expedient of copy/pasting the words into
one of the Web's free translators, such as those at
http://decode.org/
http://www.degraeve.com/translator.php
http://www.cs.utk.edu/~cjohnson/computing/javascript/round_rot13.ph

Fine if you read on-line, but not if you have a dial-up connection and
read off-line.

[jester]

On 25 Nov 2004 14:28:54 -0800, Richard Corfield

Post by Richard Corfield
All in all though, an excellent book, even if the Tolkien references
were less than subtle :-)

What Tolkien references?

[Richard Corfield]

Post by jester

Post by Richard Corfield
All in all though, an excellent book, even if the Tolkien references
were less than subtle :-)

What Tolkien references?

A mention early on about Reacher Gilt not needing a huge tower and
armies of Orcs (was it Orcs, or trolls?) to be a Dark Lord, and the
scene where the wizzards use the Omniscope towards the end reminding
me of Frodo(?)'s use of the Tolkien equivalent after the battle with
Saraman(?)

- Richard

[PleegWat]

Post by Richard Corfield

Post by jester

Post by Richard Corfield
All in all though, an excellent book, even if the Tolkien references
were less than subtle :-)

What Tolkien references?

A mention early on about Reacher Gilt not needing a huge tower and
armies of Orcs (was it Orcs, or trolls?) to be a Dark Lord, and the
scene where the wizzards use the Omniscope towards the end reminding
me of Frodo(?)'s use of the Tolkien equivalent after the battle with
Saraman(?)
- Richard

It was Pippin (spelling unknown, dutch 'pepijn'). After the battle with
Saruman. The stones were called palantír, IIRC.

[Richard Corfield]

Post by PleegWat
It was Pippin (spelling unknown, dutch 'pepijn'). After the battle with
Saruman. The stones were called palantír, IIRC.

I think thats two books I'm going to have to read again - Going Postal,
and Lord of the Rings.

- Richard

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

Post by Richard Corfield

Post by jester
What Tolkien references?

A mention early on about Reacher Gilt not needing a huge tower and
armies of Orcs (was it Orcs, or trolls?) to be a Dark Lord, and the
scene where the wizzards use the Omniscope towards the end reminding
me of Frodo(?)'s use of the Tolkien equivalent after the battle with
Saraman(?)

So it should - there was a "There's that flaming eye again!" comment
from Ridcully, as they were trying to get wassisname, the soggy
wizard.

I would check, but I've lent mine to my mum.

Cheers - Jaimie

[Paul Wilkins]

Post by Richard Corfield
A mention early on about Reacher Gilt not needing a huge tower and
armies of Orcs (was it Orcs, or trolls?) to be a Dark Lord, and the
scene where the wizzards use the Omniscope towards the end reminding
me of Frodo(?)'s use of the Tolkien equivalent after the battle with
Saraman(?)

I though that I spotted some reference to the Evil Overlord List.
The one that goes
1 My Legions of Terror will have helmets with clear plexiglass visors,
not face-concealing ones.
2 My ventilation ducts will be too small to crawl through.
etc...

Lines such as


S

P

O

I

L

E

R



S

P

A

C

E

Reacher: [about Thud!] I play the troll side for preference."
Vetinari: "Ruthless initially outnumbered, inevitably defeated in the
hands of the careless player?"

[Terry Pratchett]

Post by Paul Wilkins

Post by Richard Corfield
A mention early on about Reacher Gilt not needing a huge tower and
armies of Orcs (was it Orcs, or trolls?) to be a Dark Lord, and the
scene where the wizzards use the Omniscope towards the end reminding
me of Frodo(?)'s use of the Tolkien equivalent after the battle with
Saraman(?)

I though that I spotted some reference to the Evil Overlord List.
The one that goes
1 My Legions of Terror will have helmets with clear plexiglass visors,
not face-concealing ones.
2 My ventilation ducts will be too small to crawl through.
etc...
Lines such as
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
Reacher: [about Thud!] I play the troll side for preference."
Vetinari: "Ruthless initially outnumbered, inevitably defeated in the
hands of the careless player?"

This is a pretty accurate depiction of the 'troll' side in the actual
game!

[Damien R. Sullivan]

Post by Richard Corfield
PS2: Whatever happened to ^L or ROT-13 for spoilers? The form feed
character (^L) used to be a reliable way to ask newsreaders to ask
their users to press enter before showing the rest of the article. OK,
I suppose that won't work on the web. ROT-13 is just ROT-13. Neither
are used any more.

ROT-13 is used fairly frequently on rec.arts.sf.written.

-xx- Damien X-)

[Len Oil]

Post by Damien R. Sullivan
ROT-13 is used fairly frequently on rec.arts.sf.written.

And I've been known to employ it. Bear in mind that I have to manually
(or externally) convert things, because this newsreader will decode[1]
ROT13 but not encode[1] it.

I think ROT13 is supported more than Ctrl-L (though still not
universally). Certainly the latter doesn't work on this heap of junk.

[1] i.e. on messages being read but not on messages being written, given
encoding==decoding in all other respects with this particular
implementation of the Caesar cipher... :)

[Sanity]

Post by Damien R. Sullivan

Post by Richard Corfield
PS2: Whatever happened to ^L or ROT-13 for spoilers? The form feed
character (^L) used to be a reliable way to ask newsreaders to ask
their users to press enter before showing the rest of the article. OK,
I suppose that won't work on the web. ROT-13 is just ROT-13. Neither
are used any more.

ROT-13 is used fairly frequently on rec.arts.sf.written.

But ROT-13 has the disadvantage that you can't search it, so if you want
to know what has been written about that subject you won't find the rot
13'd posts. Spoiler space is the best way of concealing spoilers. ^L is
not widely supported, so a rather inreliable way of creating spoiler space.

[Richard Bos]

Post by Sanity

Post by Damien R. Sullivan

Post by Richard Corfield
PS2: Whatever happened to ^L or ROT-13 for spoilers? The form feed
character (^L) used to be a reliable way to ask newsreaders to ask
their users to press enter before showing the rest of the article. OK,
I suppose that won't work on the web. ROT-13 is just ROT-13. Neither
are used any more.

ROT-13 is used fairly frequently on rec.arts.sf.written.

But ROT-13 has the disadvantage that you can't search it, so if you want
to know what has been written about that subject you won't find the rot
13'd posts. Spoiler space is the best way of concealing spoilers. ^L is
not widely supported, so a rather inreliable way of creating spoiler space.

Then again, ^L has the disadvantage that if your client doesn't support
it, then it doesn't work, full stop; empty lines have the disadvantage
that if there are too few of them for your window size, then there are
too few, but the advantage that, even in that case, there will be _some_
spoiler space; while rot-13 has the advantage that it always works. If
your client doesn't support rot-13, you can always go to a decoder
website or something like that; that isn't possible with either kind of
whitespace.
IMO, rot-13 is the ideal solution for when your spoilers are solutions
to a puzzle or riddle; for example, in gaming newsgroups. You won't need
to search for the answer, just for the question, so for this purpose,
the non-searchability of rot-13 is no problem. And despite Richard's
remark above, it is still used for that reason. OTOH, where the spoiler
is a plot point you want to discuss and maybe search on, but don't want
unspoiled readers/watchers/listeners to stumble over, whitespace is
better, and in this age of web archives, that means blank lines.

Richard

[Graycat]

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 13:09:00 +0100, Sanity

Post by Sanity

Post by Damien R. Sullivan

Post by Richard Corfield
PS2: Whatever happened to ^L or ROT-13 for spoilers? The form feed
character (^L) used to be a reliable way to ask newsreaders to ask
their users to press enter before showing the rest of the article. OK,
I suppose that won't work on the web. ROT-13 is just ROT-13. Neither
are used any more.

ROT-13 is used fairly frequently on rec.arts.sf.written.

But ROT-13 has the disadvantage that you can't search it

Sure you can. Just ROT-13 whatever it is you want to search
for first.

[underthedisc]

"Grandad" the tower captain was always working in the tower control room
when Princess was running a line, even though there was always a boy in
the other seat (presumably running the other line). I would have thought
it obvious why the manager would want to chaperone two teenagers of
opposite sexes who were workiing together in cramped conditions.
Underthedisc.

[Gideon Hallett]

underthedisc wrote:













<spoiler space added>

Post by underthedisc
"Grandad" the tower captain was always working in the tower
control room when Princess was running a line, even though there
was always a boy in the other seat (presumably running the other
line).

Grandad was probably working in the control room at any given hour.
The role of senior technician seems to involve working every hour
on the clock, and for extended periods of time.

When you're the alpha geek, you're the one who has to fix anyone
that the lower lines of support can't deal with; and it's really
quite easy for that sort of job to fill all available time.

Post by underthedisc
I would have thought it obvious why the manager would want
to chaperone two teenagers of opposite sexes who were workiing
together in cramped conditions.

I don't think you can judge clacksmen by normal human yardsticks
like that - as mentioned elsewhere, it takes a fairly unusual sort
of person to sit in a box, at a keyboard, in the middle of nowhere
for hours at a time.

I don't think whatnot really comes that high up on their list of
priorities.

Gideon.

[William Black]

Post by Gideon Hallett
<spoiler space added>
When you're the alpha geek, you're the one who has to fix anyone
that the lower lines of support can't deal with; and it's really
quite easy for that sort of job to fill all available time.

Don't you believe it sonny.

We just look busy and delegate.

How else do you think we find the time to build all those custom motorcycles
and guitar effects boxes.

Being 'lead pointy head' isn't about ability, it's about seniority and a
state of mind.

[Gideon Hallett]

Post by William Black

Post by Gideon Hallett
<spoiler space added>
When you're the alpha geek, you're the one who has to fix
anyone that the lower lines of support can't deal with; and
it's really quite easy for that sort of job to fill all
available time.

Don't you believe it sonny.

Speak for yourself.

Post by William Black
We just look busy and delegate.

I don't. As the most senior technical person in my company, I
*have* to fix stuff. There's no-one else can do it; and if that
involves a sniffer and several hours trying to isolate and
understand duff packets, so be it.

Post by William Black
Being 'lead pointy head' isn't about ability, it's about
seniority and a state of mind.

In which case, ITYM 'management'. Real geeks don't do management
any further than they have to; and age doesn't necessarily
correspond to ability.

In my experience, the people given the most respect are the
gurus; the ones who can look at a problem in a complex
multiprotocol network, think for five minutes, and tell you
*exactly* where the problem is and what you do to fix it.

Those of us of lesser abilities have to use the Vimes method; and
track the sod down by bloody-minded persistence. I'm glad to say
that it still works, even if it takes longer.


Gideon.

[William Black]

Post by Gideon Hallett

Post by William Black

Post by Gideon Hallett
<spoiler space added>

I don't. As the most senior technical person in my company, I
*have* to fix stuff. There's no-one else can do it; and if that
involves a sniffer and several hours trying to isolate and
understand duff packets, so be it.

How sweet, someone who thinks packet anaysis is 'lead tech' stuff.

Once upon a time there just weren't any packets to sniff...

I was working on networks before there were any standards, we made them up
as we wrote the code, network adressing was a number set on a DIP switch...

Post by Gideon Hallett

Post by William Black
Being 'lead pointy head' isn't about ability, it's about
seniority and a state of mind.

In which case, ITYM 'management'. Real geeks don't do management
any further than they have to; and age doesn't necessarily
correspond to ability.

I have no staff, I function as a local technical consultant.

Who said anything about age anyway? I said seniority.

Post by Gideon Hallett
In my experience, the people given the most respect are the
gurus; the ones who can look at a problem in a complex
multiprotocol network, think for five minutes, and tell you
*exactly* where the problem is and what you do to fix it.

That's one way, the other, easier way is to say 'it'll take at least three
hours' and fix it in one. Every so often shit happens and it takes three
anyway, if you'd said 'one' and a wheel comes off you just look a fool.

Post by Gideon Hallett
Those of us of lesser abilities have to use the Vimes method; and
track the sod down by bloody-minded persistence. I'm glad to say
that it still works, even if it takes longer.

Hard work usually does work.

I'm not saying I don't do any, I'm saying that cleverer men and women than
me work harder and longer than me for less cash and status.

The trick is a reputation for infallibility and intolerance.

A reputation like that usually takes about a decade to build.

[jester]

Note followup, as this is going off-topic

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 21:18:07 -0000, William Black

Post by William Black
I have no staff, I function as a local technical consultant.

Yeah, it shows.

Post by William Black
A reputation like that usually takes about a decade to build.

Whereas your reputation on a newsgroup can be built in just a few hours.

[Farkle Pingleblobber]

Post by jester
Whereas your reputation on a newsgroup can be built in just a few hours.

Even if it took ten years to develop, it can be destroyed in about two
minutes.

-Fark

[Daibhid Ceannaideach]

Post by William Black
How sweet, someone who thinks packet anaysis is 'lead tech' stuff.
Once upon a time there just weren't any packets to sniff...
I was working on networks before there were any standards, we made
them up as we wrote the code, network adressing was a number set on a
DIP switch...

Ah, yes. The techie version of the Four Yorkshiremen, as famously parodied
by Dilbert.

"When I was an engineer we just had zeroes and ones. And sometimes we
didn't even have ones."

"You had zeroes? We had to use the letter O..."

[Richard Bos]

"William Black" <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Post by William Black

Post by Gideon Hallett
I don't. As the most senior technical person in my company, I
*have* to fix stuff. There's no-one else can do it; and if that
involves a sniffer and several hours trying to isolate and
understand duff packets, so be it.

How sweet, someone who thinks packet anaysis is 'lead tech' stuff.

Nice, condescending tone. Well done.

Post by William Black
I was working on networks before there were any standards,

Which explains why you're non-conforming.

Post by William Black

Post by Gideon Hallett
In which case, ITYM 'management'. Real geeks don't do management
any further than they have to; and age doesn't necessarily
correspond to ability.

I have no staff, I function as a local technical consultant.

Which explains why you sound like one, rather than like an honest geek.
BTW, you spelled that last word wrong.

Richard

[William Black]

Post by Richard Bos
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Post by William Black

Post by Gideon Hallett
I don't. As the most senior technical person in my company, I
*have* to fix stuff. There's no-one else can do it; and if that
involves a sniffer and several hours trying to isolate and
understand duff packets, so be it.

How sweet, someone who thinks packet anaysis is 'lead tech' stuff.

Nice, condescending tone. Well done.

Thank you.

Post by Richard Bos

Post by William Black
I was working on networks before there were any standards,

Which explains why you're non-conforming.

One of the things I've discovered over the years is that all standards are a
basis for negotiation.

Try getting different makes of video phones to work together some time...

Post by Richard Bos

Post by William Black

Post by Gideon Hallett
In which case, ITYM 'management'. Real geeks don't do management
any further than they have to; and age doesn't necessarily
correspond to ability.

I have no staff, I function as a local technical consultant.

Which explains why you sound like one, rather than like an honest geek.
BTW, you spelled that last word wrong.

A spelling flame...

I haven't had one of those for almost a week...

Oh, and I'm out of the game in a few weeks. I've had enough of lousy pay
and getting the blame when it all goes wrong while the suits get the credit
when everything works...

'Going Postal', like Dilbert, isn't that far from reality, except that in
the real world Gilt would get a knighthood, be chair of the local NHS Trust
and the star of every local fundraiser, even if he had been disgraced...

[Ed Weatherup]

William Black wrote:
[snip]

Post by William Black
'Going Postal', like Dilbert, isn't that far from reality, except
that in the real world Gilt would get a knighthood, be chair of the
local NHS Trust and the star of every local fundraiser, even if he
had been disgraced...

That was my feeling too, except in RW we don't have a Vetinary to manage the
"set a thief to catch a thief"[1] so well.

[1] Or trap involving rotating knives, I forget the exact details.

[JB]

Post by William Black

Post by Richard Bos
Nice, condescending tone. Well done.

Thank you.

Post by Richard Bos

Post by William Black
I have no staff, I function as a local technical consultant.

Which explains why you sound like one, rather than like an honest geek.
BTW, you spelled that last word wrong.

A spelling flame...
I haven't had one of those for almost a week...

Children! Can't you play nicely?

Seriously, this is starting to look like the "Fire Hydrant Contests" we
have here at work.
As one who works with the Best and Brightest(tm), I can see that both of
you, lads, are
quite bright and have no need to intimidate (nor feel intimigated by)
the other.

Let's get on with exploring the intricacies of Going Postal.

;)

[William Black]

Post by JB

Post by William Black

Post by Richard Bos
Nice, condescending tone. Well done.

Thank you.

Post by Richard Bos

Post by William Black
I have no staff, I function as a local technical consultant.

Which explains why you sound like one, rather than like an honest geek.
BTW, you spelled that last word wrong.

A spelling flame...
I haven't had one of those for almost a week...

Children! Can't you play nicely?
Seriously, this is starting to look like the "Fire Hydrant Contests" we
have here at work.
As one who works with the Best and Brightest(tm), I can see that both of
you, lads, are
quite bright and have no need to intimidate (nor feel intimigated by)
the other.
Let's get on with exploring the intricacies of Going Postal.

OK, I'll play...

I find it interesting that the engineering manager is obviously what the
tower staff turn into after many years in our world.

As Ankh-Morpork doesn't seem to have much in the way of industry, and what
there is seems to be small 'one-man-bands'?

Diskworld is obviously a 'metal poor' culture, there isn't any serious
engineering going on. It's also cash poor, there's no serious
infrastructure, except the clacks system, and that's falling to pieces, the
medical system is best described as inadequate and the cops don't work on
any level beyond the trivial, to the extent that thieves and beggars are a
valued part of society.

The Patrician's office is tiny and the military is small and ineffective,
but so is everyone else's.

The soil is poor (cabbages grow, grain doesn't)

Magic seems to be all that stands between society and chaos...

So, where does the Grand Trunk's Head of Engineering come from?

[Joerg Ruedenauer]

Post by William Black
I find it interesting that the engineering manager is obviously what the
tower staff turn into after many years in our world.
As Ankh-Morpork doesn't seem to have much in the way of industry, and what
there is seems to be small 'one-man-bands'?

It does have industry. Apart from the cunning artificers, there are many
dwarfs and even clothes mass production was mentioned.

Post by William Black
Diskworld is obviously a 'metal poor' culture, there isn't any serious
engineering going on.

I think you're forgetting the dwarfs.

Post by William Black
It's also cash poor, there's no serious
infrastructure, except the clacks system, and that's falling to pieces,

Will be repaired now. The roads on the Sto Plains seem to be pretty
good. There's a working post office now and paper money will soon be
introduced. There's a garbage collection system.

Post by William Black
the medical system is best described as inadequate

Also getting better, see Lady Sybils Hospital.

Post by William Black
and the cops don't work on
any level beyond the trivial, to the extent that thieves and beggars are a
valued part of society.

But it works ;-)

Post by William Black
The Patrician's office is tiny

I have to disagree. Hmm... the room may be small ;-)

Post by William Black
and the military is small and ineffective,
but so is everyone else's.

Apart from Klatch, that's true. I've always had the feeling that there
are many weapons built anyway, for private use or for export: Burleigh
and Stronginthearm, e.g.

Post by William Black
The soil is poor (cabbages grow, grain doesn't)
Magic seems to be all that stands between society and chaos...

It seems to me that magic on the Discworld creates much more chaos then
it prevents...

Post by William Black
So, where does the Grand Trunk's Head of Engineering come from?

Perhaps he used to build clocks or windmills.

Joerg

[William Black]

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer

Post by William Black
I find it interesting that the engineering manager is obviously what the
tower staff turn into after many years in our world.
As Ankh-Morpork doesn't seem to have much in the way of industry, and what
there is seems to be small 'one-man-bands'?

It does have industry. Apart from the cunning artificers, there are many
dwarfs and even clothes mass production was mentioned.

But little of what we'd consider to be 'industrial engineering'

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer

Post by William Black
Diskworld is obviously a 'metal poor' culture, there isn't any serious
engineering going on.

I think you're forgetting the dwarfs.

They're not doing engineering, they're doing craft.

There's a difference.

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer

Post by William Black
It's also cash poor, there's no serious
infrastructure, except the clacks system, and that's falling to pieces,

Will be repaired now. The roads on the Sto Plains seem to be pretty
good. There's a working post office now and paper money will soon be
introduced. There's a garbage collection system.

No roads, the sewer system isn't maintained, the gates/walls aren't
maintained, there is no sign of any organised systemic city management.

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer

Post by William Black
the medical system is best described as inadequate

Also getting better, see Lady Sybils Hospital.

'Not everyone dies...'

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer

Post by William Black
and the cops don't work on
any level beyond the trivial, to the extent that thieves and beggars are a
valued part of society.

But it works ;-)

No, it works to the extent that a rich, devious and highly trained killer
can survive, with difficulty, as head of government.

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer

Post by William Black
The Patrician's office is tiny

I have to disagree. Hmm... the room may be small ;-)

Hmm... I mean he doesn't have as many staff as a much smaller modern town.

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer

Post by William Black
and the military is small and ineffective,
but so is everyone else's.

Apart from Klatch, that's true. I've always had the feeling that there
are many weapons built anyway, for private use or for export: Burleigh
and Stronginthearm, e.g.

About 3% to 5% of the population of most European states are uniformed
military.

This costs a very great deal of money.

Ankh-Morpork is about the technological level of a sixteenth century Italian
city state, with obvious differences.

It has low taxation.

It doesn't hire mercenaries, it doesn't seem to have a large standing army
and the militia is at best a memory (see Men at Arms) It's basic defence
policy is 'Let them in and assimilate them'

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer
Perhaps he used to build clocks or windmills.

No, that's the point I'm trying to make, he's not a craftsman, he's an
engineering manager of a specific type well known to anyone who has worked
in a large organisation employing numbers of engineers.

Such people develop over many years and there doesn't seem to be anywhere
for them to develop in Ankh-Morpork, except possibly the arsenal, also
mentioned in Men at Arms...

[Tom Joyce]

Also sprach "William Black" <***@hotmail.com>:

}
} They're not doing engineering, they're doing craft.

Without wanting to provide spoilers for T5E, I think some of the
transport features the dwarves have installed definitely count as
engineering...

[Jenny Radcliffe]

Post by William Black

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer

Post by William Black
I find it interesting that the engineering manager is obviously
what the tower staff turn into after many years in our world.
As Ankh-Morpork doesn't seem to have much in the way of industry, > >

and what there is seems to be small 'one-man-bands'?

It does have industry. Apart from the cunning artificers, there are
many dwarfs and even clothes mass production was mentioned.

But little of what we'd consider to be 'industrial engineering'

So far as we have seen.

I'd say that what we've seen of various Dwarf activities is closely akin to
mining engineering of the 19th century, more or less.

Post by William Black

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer

Post by William Black
Diskworld is obviously a 'metal poor' culture, there isn't any
serious engineering going on.

I think you're forgetting the dwarfs.

They're not doing engineering, they're doing craft.
There's a difference.

Some of them are - the one who was shot in Men at Arms, f'rinstance - but
some of what we've seen of the mining, and indeed all of the Low King's
place, seem to me comparable to, again, mid-industrial-revolution-ish
Engineering.

Post by William Black

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer

Post by William Black
It's also cash poor, there's no serious
infrastructure, except the clacks system, and that's falling to pieces,

Will be repaired now. The roads on the Sto Plains seem to be pretty
good. There's a working post office now and paper money will soon
be introduced. There's a garbage collection system.

No roads,

No roads? You could have fooled me.

Post by William Black
the sewer system isn't maintained, the gates/walls aren't
maintained, there is no sign of any organised systemic city
management.

Nonsense. We haven't bene *shown* any of this maintenance, but why on earth
think it doesn't exist. Clearly it exists! Otherwise, these things would all
be falling apart!

We *have* been told that the sewer system isn't maintained - although at the
same time there are certain references, to the, um, wotsits, stoolies?, with
the carts, who collect litter, plus of course Harry King - and indeed that
people aren't aware of it. But at the same time, it's clearly functioning,
because that's part of the *point* in MaA - no one thinks about it, but
somehow, the city functions and somehow, the sewage, well, goes somewhere.

Post by William Black

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer

Post by William Black
the medical system is best described as inadequate

Also getting better, see Lady Sybils Hospital.

'Not everyone dies...'

Indeed. 19th century equivalence again.

Post by William Black

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer

Post by William Black
and the cops don't work on
any level beyond the trivial, to the extent that thieves and
beggars are a valued part of society.

But it works ;-)

No, it works to the extent that a rich, devious and highly trained
killer can survive, with difficulty, as head of government.

*cough*GWB*cough*

Not sure about the highly trained bit, but still.

The cops work. They work in a slightly different way to the way we'd
expect - but then, the same goes for the cops in Thailand, as I understand
it - but that's because it's a different society, and a different set-up,
that they have to work in.

Post by William Black

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer

Post by William Black
The Patrician's office is tiny

I have to disagree. Hmm... the room may be small ;-)

Hmm... I mean he doesn't have as many staff as a much smaller modern town.

Since when? While we only hear about a few of them specifically - Drumknott
et al - there were certainly plenty lined up in, um, oh, help, where's my
brain, Men at Arms again, for Detritus to question, and they, IIRC, were
only the ones who were there overnight.

There's a few references, I think, to there being several clerks and random
people who work for him, but he keeps it very quiet.

Post by William Black

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer

Post by William Black
and the military is small and ineffective,
but so is everyone else's.

Apart from Klatch, that's true. I've always had the feeling that
Burleigh and Stronginthearm, e.g.

About 3% to 5% of the population of most European states are
uniformed military.
This costs a very great deal of money.
Ankh-Morpork is about the technological level of a sixteenth century
Italian city state, with obvious differences.
It has low taxation.
It doesn't hire mercenaries, it doesn't seem to have a large
standing army and the militia is at best a memory (see Men at Arms)
It's basic defence policy is 'Let them in and assimilate them'

^

Post by William Black

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer
Perhaps he used to build clocks or windmills.

No, that's the point I'm trying to make, he's not a craftsman,
he's an engineering manager of a specific type well known to anyone
who has worked in a large organisation employing numbers of
engineers.
Such people develop over many years and there doesn't seem to be
anywhere for them to develop in Ankh-Morpork, except possibly the
arsenal, also mentioned in Men at Arms...

The latter seemed to me to be mostly about out-dated storage. But there
again, references in Jingo - during that Council-type-thing meeting, there
was a manufacturer of arms there (talking about sales to Klatch) ... he
clearly had *some* kind of factory.

But actually, my reading of the Chief Engineer was *slightly* different to
yours. I think there are two major points of difference - firstly, that
while the Clacks may be relatively recent, it's not *all* that recent, and
he has had quite some time, a few years at least, to get to his range of
experience. And secondly ... um ... sometimes, in unexpected circumstances
or sudden adversity, a character can spring fully-formed, as it were, from a
hitherto unexpected place. That is, someone can be in the right place at the
right time and suddenly display astonishing expertise for something
completely new and unexpected. Now, clearly this guy had some serious
experience, yes. But as I say, the Clacks has been around for a while.

I consider it to be deeply fortunate that I read "The Victorian Internet"
(by Tom Standage), about the telegraph, shortly before reading Going Postal.
It helped a lot with my deeper understanding of the book.

I'm still not sure why you think that, just because we haven't seen things
(like Vetinari's staff, for instance, or a system for maintaining the city
walls and gates) on DW or in AM, that they definitively don't exist. There
is more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in your philosophy, or some
slightly more accurate version of that quote - and how much more is that
surely true of Discworld, for goodness' sake!?

Jenny

[JB]

Post by William Black

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer
It does have industry. Apart from the cunning artificers, there are many
dwarfs and even clothes mass production was mentioned.

But little of what we'd consider to be 'industrial engineering'

You raise a very interesting point. It seems that discworld (oops,
Ankh-Morpork) is barely
beginning the industrial revolution - if that. So we shouldn't be
surprised by a paucity of engineers.
Hmmm. is Leonardo Da Quirm an "Engineer"? (if so, what type of train
does he run ;)

Post by William Black

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer

Post by William Black
Diskworld is obviously a 'metal poor' culture, there isn't any serious
engineering going on.

I think you're forgetting the dwarfs.

They're not doing engineering, they're doing craft.
There's a difference.

Right. But why assume "the engineering manager is obviously what the
tower staff turn into "
Note: despite the many similarities between discworld and Earth, there
are enough differences that
we should be careful with our assumptions: e.g. where do dragons,
werewolves, wizzards (as
well as wizards), gods, and A'tuin come from? [See my next comment below]

Post by William Black
No, that's the point I'm trying to make, he's not a craftsman, he's an
engineering manager of a specific type well known to anyone who has worked
in a large organisation employing numbers of engineers.
Such people develop over many years and there doesn't seem to be anywhere
for them to develop in Ankh-Morpork, except possibly the arsenal, also
mentioned in Men at Arms...

The magic field can affect the speed of light, therefore is can affect
the speed of acquiring engineering
experience! I suspect a clever lad like Ponder Stebbons could come up
with a theory of "Engineero ex
Nihilo" to fully explain all of your questions - and tell us where all
the words go when we erase the black
board.

I am intrigued by many of your comments, but since I see discworld to be
satire - it isn't crucial to me
if the existance of engineers (or cops, or witches, or pin collectors)
is fully developed and substantiated
historically. What matters is how our world is reflected by discworld
(and most importantly - how
humorously it is reflected).

[Daibhid Ceannaideach]

Post by William Black

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer

Post by William Black
I find it interesting that the engineering manager is obviously
what the tower staff turn into after many years in our world.
As Ankh-Morpork doesn't seem to have much in the way of industry,
and

what

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer

Post by William Black
there is seems to be small 'one-man-bands'?

It does have industry. Apart from the cunning artificers, there are
many dwarfs and even clothes mass production was mentioned.

But little of what we'd consider to be 'industrial engineering'

Do you think the "pinneries" hand craft each pin? Tinned food has been
mentioned, so there must be canneries. Ankh-Morpork shows every sign of
being as industrial as you can get, without actually discovering steam
power.

Post by William Black
No roads,

Oh, well, if you're just going to make things up...

Post by William Black

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer

Post by William Black
and the cops don't work on
any level beyond the trivial, to the extent that thieves and
beggars

are a

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer

Post by William Black
valued part of society.

But it works ;-)

No, it works to the extent that a rich, devious and highly trained
killer can survive, with difficulty, as head of government.

Which is the extent most societies work if you get down to it.

The Watch, today, could probably wipe out theft to at least the same
level as we have. But the Thieves' Guild is *there* and it *works*, so
why change things?

Post by William Black

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer

Post by William Black
The Patrician's office is tiny

I have to disagree. Hmm... the room may be small ;-)

Hmm... I mean he doesn't have as many staff as a much smaller modern town.

Again, if you're going to make things up... We're not told how much
staff he has, just that an entire wing of the Palace is filled with
clerks.

Post by William Black

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer
Perhaps he used to build clocks or windmills.

No, that's the point I'm trying to make, he's not a craftsman, he's
an engineering manager of a specific type well known to anyone who has
worked in a large organisation employing numbers of engineers.
Such people develop over many years and there doesn't seem to be
anywhere for them to develop in Ankh-Morpork, except possibly the
arsenal, also mentioned in Men at Arms...

The pinneries, the canneries, even, for Heaven's sake, Teemer & Spools,
whose team of engineers is specifically mentioned as designing and
building the perforating machine.

(Incidentally, have you ever wondered where meat comes from? There are
only two butchers mentioned in the books, and one of them only does dog
food. Obviously this makes them the only butchers in the city...)

[Jason Gorringe]

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach
(Incidentally, have you ever wondered where meat comes from? There are
only two butchers mentioned in the books, and one of them only does dog
food. Obviously this makes them the only butchers in the city...)

As TP said recently when asked about pirates in Discworld "There are lots of
pirates in Discworld, I have just not written about them"

Jason

[Kieran Sanders]

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach
Do you think the "pinneries" hand craft each pin? Tinned food has been
mentioned, so there must be canneries. Ankh-Morpork shows every sign of
being as industrial as you can get, without actually discovering steam
power.

It's also quite possible that we'd never have discovered steam on
roundworld if we'd had Golems to power the pumps and other machinery. As
you say, a different power source doesn't make industry any less
industrial.

Indeed, I'd say that even a completely non-mechanical process of sweat
shops is still "industrial" given enough workers each doing a particular
task, and would still lead to a class of Engineer types who specialise
in making the process as efficient as possible, identifying bottlenecks etc.

<snip>

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach
The Watch, today, could probably wipe out theft to at least the same
level as we have. But the Thieves' Guild is *there* and it *works*, so
why change things?

Added to which, the individual "contributions" to the thieves guild
probably amount to less than the taxes that would otherwise be required
to maintain the watch at a manpower level capable of controlling crime
without the assistance of the guilds.

<snip>

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach
The pinneries, the canneries, even, for Heaven's sake, Teemer & Spools,
whose team of engineers is specifically mentioned as designing and
building the perforating machine.

We also have the sonky factory (plus its rivals - "Not everything people
call a sonky is made by us" or words to that effect in T5E), and the
pottery works where the clay was stolen in Feet of Clay. And Harry
King's recycling centre in TT, which has a pretty well defined
"production line".

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach
(Incidentally, have you ever wondered where meat comes from? There are
only two butchers mentioned in the books, and one of them only does dog
food. Obviously this makes them the only butchers in the city...)

Quite. There's mention of an entire slaughterhouse /district/ (I believe
in T5E), And if the Fat from Uberwald is coming down by the barrel, then
there must be fair sized industry making soap, candles and all the rest.
Overall I'd say that Ankh-Morpork is pretty industrialised, even if its
not all that mechanised.

[Clare]

The soil is poor (cabbages grow, grain doesn't)
Magic seems to be all that stands between society and chaos...

As an allotment holder, I know that cabbages need quite a bit of
nutrition, while grasses will grow anywhere! It may be down to latent
magical fields (note obvious pune - sorry!) but I think TP just thought
it would be amusing to see loads of fields of cabbages instead of
grain, which is what you would probably see in the arable fields near
where he lives.

As an engineer too, I really loved the Chief Clacks Engineer character.
He is just like all the older men I have worked/studied with - they
are the absolute essential prerequisites for a functioning system, just
as portrayed in Going Postal. His problems and arguments dissembled in
the book are almost identical to any engineer today. He needs the
supplies - the managers who know nothing about engineering think he's
overstating his problem and think he can cope with less; he needs staff
- the management think it costs too much so they expect silk purses out
of sow's ears with a skeleton crew; he needs the management to
understand what it is he's trying to do - the management are determined
to remain unenlightened.

Reading your interpretation of Going Postal, I think you need to read
it again a little slower - I know it's tempting to storm through a new
Pratchett book because the plot is so good, in this book especially,
but it is easy to miss things. I know I did - after lurking for a
while I found I had misread something in Interesting Times and went
back to find it.

BTW - the medical system is interesting. I can see that TP could be
working his way up to an interesting book based on Lady Sybil's
Hospital, or at least one where it proves a lot more involved. In the
past, the concept in Ankh-Morpork/Discworld seems to have been
discouraged in the same way that an organised fire service was (golems
excepted). For those who missed it, when it did get introduced briefly
a few fire-fighters decided to tout for business!

[William Black]

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach

Post by William Black

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer

Post by William Black
I find it interesting that the engineering manager is obviously
what the tower staff turn into after many years in our world.
As Ankh-Morpork doesn't seem to have much in the way of industry,
and

what

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer

Post by William Black
there is seems to be small 'one-man-bands'?

It does have industry. Apart from the cunning artificers, there are
many dwarfs and even clothes mass production was mentioned.

But little of what we'd consider to be 'industrial engineering'

Do you think the "pinneries" hand craft each pin?

I hate to do this, it makes me sound almost devious...

I'm a re-enactor, I was once involved with another re-enactor who wanted to
have a simple low tech craft.

Pin making using a two part die and drawn wire was the solution, it's even
seriously relevant to medievalists as it uses drawn wire, one of the three
great medieval technological advances. Plus the equipment costs very
little, is reasonably easy to make and weighs a couple of pounds.

Early pins were made by individuals hitting a lump of metal hard with a
hammer to cold weld the coiled wire forming the head.

Pin making WAS a function of individual craftsmen...

I assume Mr Pratchett knows most of that already, otherwise Stanley
(Gibbons?) wouldn't have anything to collect.

[Daibhid Ceannaideach]

<A-M engineering>

Post by William Black

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach

Post by William Black
But little of what we'd consider to be 'industrial engineering'

Do you think the "pinneries" hand craft each pin?

I hate to do this, it makes me sound almost devious...

<snip>

Post by William Black
Pin making WAS a function of individual craftsmen...

Well, yes, it *was*. Obviously, otherwise there wouldn't have been pins in
those days, which there clearly were. But did this produce the quantities
Stanley quotes? I imagine Ankh-Morpork pin-making as being more
"assembling-line", like the candles in T5E. ICBW.

[Daibhid Ceannaideach]

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach
I imagine Ankh-Morpork pin-making as being
more "assembling-line", like the candles in T5E.

Or even FOC...

[@lec ©awley]

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach
<A-M engineering>

Post by William Black

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach

Post by William Black
But little of what we'd consider to be 'industrial engineering'

Do you think the "pinneries" hand craft each pin?

I hate to do this, it makes me sound almost devious...

<snip>

Post by William Black
Pin making WAS a function of individual craftsmen...

Well, yes, it *was*. Obviously, otherwise there wouldn't have been pins in
those days, which there clearly were. But did this produce the quantities
Stanley quotes? I imagine Ankh-Morpork pin-making as being more
"assembling-line", like the candles in T5E. ICBW.

And Karl Marx wrote at great length about how the productivity of a
multi-man production-line pinnery was much greater than that of the same
number of individual pinners (without any particularly advanced
machinery). Of course, you need a market large enough to consume the
output of a multi-man pinnery: if the town can only consume the output
of one or two individual pinners, a large pinnery will go bust. So it is
likely that A-M is currently developing such large scale production as
we read. It has doubled in size since NW: mass production will be
becoming viable in more industries every year. But, of course, they
don't make it into the books unless PTerry finds them useful.

[William Black]

"@lec �awley" <***@spamspam.co.uk> wrote in message news:***@individual.net...

Of course, you need a market large enough to consume the

Post by @lec ©awley
output of a multi-man pinnery: if the town can only consume the output
of one or two individual pinners, a large pinnery will go bust. So it is
likely that A-M is currently developing such large scale production as
we read. It has doubled in size since NW: mass production will be
becoming viable in more industries every year. But, of course, they
don't make it into the books unless PTerry finds them useful.

The activities of the pin collectors seem to imply that this just isn't the
case and that, in reality, there are a large number of small scale pin
makers.

Remember, there's a shortage of people doing sewing, although there are
loads of seamstresses...

[Daibhid Ceannaideach]

Post by @lec ©awley
Of course, you need a market large enough to consume the

Post by @lec ©awley
output of a multi-man pinnery: if the town can only consume the
output of one or two individual pinners, a large pinnery will go
bust. So it is likely that A-M is currently developing such large
scale production as we read. It has doubled in size since NW: mass
production will be becoming viable in more industries every year.
But, of course, they don't make it into the books unless PTerry finds
them useful.

The activities of the pin collectors seem to imply that this just
isn't the case and that, in reality, there are a large number of
small scale pin makers.

I'd have said they implied there were a fair number of *large* scale pin
makers. After all, a Doldrum No. 6 isn't going to be identifiably a
collectable (still less have "sports") unless there's a lot of them about,
and they're all largely the same. I may be being misled by the stamp
analogy, however.

[William Black]

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach

Post by @lec ©awley
Of course, you need a market large enough to consume the

Post by @lec ©awley
output of a multi-man pinnery: if the town can only consume the
output of one or two individual pinners, a large pinnery will go
bust. So it is likely that A-M is currently developing such large
scale production as we read. It has doubled in size since NW: mass
production will be becoming viable in more industries every year.
But, of course, they don't make it into the books unless PTerry finds
them useful.

The activities of the pin collectors seem to imply that this just
isn't the case and that, in reality, there are a large number of
small scale pin makers.

I'd have said they implied there were a fair number of *large* scale pin
makers. After all, a Doldrum No. 6 isn't going to be identifiably a
collectable (still less have "sports") unless there's a lot of them about,
and they're all largely the same. I may be being misled by the stamp
analogy, however.

But a very small scale pin making operation (one man) will make hundreds of
pins a week.

The 'Doldrum No. 6' may be a specific model or it may just be the sixth die
they used, we don't know.
--
William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe
Barbeques on fire by chalets past the headland
I've watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off Newborough
All this will pass like ice-cream on the beach
Time for tea

[Daibhid Ceannaideach]

Post by William Black

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach

Post by William Black
The activities of the pin collectors seem to imply that this just
isn't the case and that, in reality, there are a large number of
small scale pin makers.

I'd have said they implied there were a fair number of *large* scale
pin makers. After all, a Doldrum No. 6 isn't going to be identifiably
a collectable (still less have "sports") unless there's a lot of them
about, and they're all largely the same. I may be being misled by the
stamp analogy, however.

But a very small scale pin making operation (one man) will make
hundreds of pins a week.
The 'Doldrum No. 6' may be a specific model or it may just be the
sixth die they used, we don't know.

Good point. I still say the books imply that Ankh-Morpork does have some
industrialised manufacture, but acknowledge that there's not enough
information about whether or not pinning is one of them.

[William Black]

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach
Good point. I still say the books imply that Ankh-Morpork does have some
industrialised manufacture, but acknowledge that there's not enough
information about whether or not pinning is one of them.

Well they're not going to get steam power any time soon, there's no
industrial scale manufacture of either cast iron or steel. In fact
Ankh-Morpork exhibits many medieval aspects, and being 'metal poor' is one
of them.

It took Western Europe three hundred years after the introduction of the
blast furnace to develop a working steam engine.

However somehow they've put the 'firearms' cat back in the bag. I find that
interesting...

[Daibhid Ceannaideach]

Post by William Black

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach
Good point. I still say the books imply that Ankh-Morpork does have
some industrialised manufacture, but acknowledge that there's not
enough information about whether or not pinning is one of them.

Well they're not going to get steam power any time soon,

This is true.

Post by William Black
there's no
industrial scale manufacture of either cast iron or steel.

This, I don't recall there being any evidence of, either way.

[William Black]

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach

Post by William Black
there's no
industrial scale manufacture of either cast iron or steel.

This, I don't recall there being any evidence of, either way.

The Night Watch don't notice the glow of the steel mills in the sky after
dark.

If you live within five miles of steel mills then one thing dominates the
night sky...

[Jenny Radcliffe]

Post by William Black

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach

Post by William Black
there's no
industrial scale manufacture of either cast iron or steel.

This, I don't recall there being any evidence of, either way.

The Night Watch don't notice the glow of the steel mills in the sky
after dark.
If you live within five miles of steel mills then one thing dominates
the night sky...

Pterry doesn't *mention* them noticing the glow - but why would he, if it
wasn't relevant to the story?

Jenny

[@lec ©awley]

Post by William Black

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach

Post by William Black
there's no
industrial scale manufacture of either cast iron or steel.

This, I don't recall there being any evidence of, either way.

The Night Watch don't notice the glow of the steel mills in the sky after
dark.
If you live within five miles of steel mills then one thing dominates the
night sky...

The steel mills will be in the mountains, where the dwarves, iron ore,
coal etc. are. And they may well be underground, because that is the way
dwarves like it.

[Daibhid Ceannaideach]

Post by @lec ©awley

Post by William Black

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach

Post by William Black
there's no
industrial scale manufacture of either cast iron or steel.

This, I don't recall there being any evidence of, either way.

The Night Watch don't notice the glow of the steel mills in the sky
after dark.
If you live within five miles of steel mills then one thing dominates
the night sky...

The steel mills will be in the mountains, where the dwarves, iron ore,
coal etc. are. And they may well be underground, because that is the
way dwarves like it.

And the steel then gets shipped to Ankh-Morpork for manufacturing purposes.
Makes sense to me.

[JB]

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach

Post by William Black

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach
Good point. I still say the books imply that Ankh-Morpork does have
some industrialised manufacture, but acknowledge that there's not
enough information about whether or not pinning is one of them.

Well they're not going to get steam power any time soon,

This is true.

What about Urn's "philosophical engine" in SG?\

[Daibhid Ceannaideach]

Post by JB

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach

Post by William Black
Well they're not going to get steam power any time soon,

This is true.

What about Urn's "philosophical engine" in SG?\

Good point (especially for someone who believes the whole discussion is
pointless 8-)...) but that doesn't seem to have caught on. It's possible
that Urn decided to keep it quiet, to stop more people building Moving
Turtles.

[JB]

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach

Post by JB

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach

Post by William Black
Well they're not going to get steam power any time soon,

This is true.

What about Urn's "philosophical engine" in SG?\

Good point (especially for someone who believes the whole discussion is
pointless 8-)...)

Glib comments aside, I don't think the topic's pointless but the discussion
is unfruitful. I am interested in DW engineering and technology but the
conversation is mainly wild speculation and based very little on the texts.
It isn't literary analysis my friends ... unless we're deconstructionists.


We should consider that on DW a steam engine was used in a military
action and seen by several
armies. It was successfully used to propel a boat from Ephebe to Omnia
- so the principle was
proven. Many artisans were involved in making the turtle so the
knowledge should have spread.
The advantages of the steam engine over sail power and horse power were
discussed in the text so
(assuming no nasty bumps on the head) the people who learned the
technology knew the power of it.
Why did it disappear?

Also, consider the "Gonne" - it 'conciously' murdered people (well, a
dwarf) who would have
been able make more. Someone said they put the cat back in the bag
(or the genie in the bottle)
Right - but the text suggests the Gonne sought to be unique and that is
why no more were made.
[BTW: it is hard to imagine making a handheld Gonne without decent
quality steel - where did that
come from?]

How about Leonard De Quirm's various inventions which require some
interesting (and non-naturally
occuring) raw materials? Perhaps the development of technology on DW
does not follow the same
rules as it does on Earth (whazzit called Roundworld?).

How do all of these pieces fit? Well... It is a magical world, where
magic plays a similar role as
technology does on other worlds. I'd say the fundamental issue of
technology and DW should be
addressed (and is far more intertesting) before trying to decide whether
Dwarfs have steam engines.
It apears to me that on DW technology does exist in a vaccum - it can be
created 'ex nihilo' (eg. the
moving pictures) and it can vanish, too (apparently, Steam Engines).
Since that doesn't seem to be
the way things work on Roundworld, we cannot apply the same rules to
understanding the DW texts.

Maybe, we've left the realm of the texts and are coming to absurd
conclusions because we're ignoring
the fact that the texts are novels written by a (brilliant) man, but are
not, in fact, historical documents.
In fiction, there are things which don't make sense - but they make a
great tale. Sometimes, we have
to just accept things as they are in the text (ie. suspend our
disbeleif) and go with it. I mean: magic.

Returning to my opening statement, no offense, but this isn't literary
analysis - it is mental masturbation.
Well, I'm done, Hope it was as good for you as it was for me!

[Diane L.]

Post by William Black

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach
Good point. I still say the books imply that Ankh-Morpork does have
some industrialised manufacture, but acknowledge that there's not
enough information about whether or not pinning is one of them.

Well they're not going to get steam power any time soon,

But they do have golem power.

Diane L.

[William Black]

Post by Diane L.

Post by William Black

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach
Good point. I still say the books imply that Ankh-Morpork does have
some industrialised manufacture, but acknowledge that there's not
enough information about whether or not pinning is one of them.

Well they're not going to get steam power any time soon,

But they do have golem power.

I wonder if you could synchronise them...

Or build huge ones...

Or build non humanoid shaped ones... (I don't think that works in Jewish
folklaw)

[Tom Joyce]

Also sprach "William Black" <***@hotmail.com>:

}
} Well they're not going to get steam power any time soon,


Unless the inventor of the combination harvester makes the final step
in the chain he almost seemed to have completed...

} It took Western Europe three hundred years after the introduction of the
} blast furnace to develop a working steam engine.

Except that the Ancient Greeks had designed one to be used as a toy in
the 1st Century...

[Farkle Pingleblobber]

Post by Tom Joyce
} Well they're not going to get steam power any time soon,
Unless the inventor of the combination harvester makes the final step
in the chain he almost seemed to have completed...
} It took Western Europe three hundred years after the introduction of the
} blast furnace to develop a working steam engine.
Except that the Ancient Greeks had designed one to be used as a toy in
the 1st Century...

The man that designed that wee spinning ball is a Hero. ;)

-Superfarkle
-How many pingles could a pingleblobber blob if a pingleblobber . .

[William Black]

Post by Tom Joyce
} It took Western Europe three hundred years after the introduction of the
} blast furnace to develop a working steam engine.
Except that the Ancient Greeks had designed one to be used as a toy in
the 1st Century...

What Hero of Alexandria actually built is a matter of some discussion.

[Baba Yaga]

Post by William Black
Well they're not going to get steam power any time soon,

I may as well display my stupidity: why not?

Surely all it takes is one wizard with one idea, or one unseen
writing, which gets loose.

Post by William Black
there's no
industrial scale manufacture of either cast iron or steel. In fact
Ankh-Morpork exhibits many medieval aspects, and being 'metal poor' is one
of them.

Discworld moving in narrative time, I've a notion that Ankh-Morpork
was in certain respects noticeably *more mediaeval in the early books
than it is in the later books.

In any case, Ankh-Morpork is a city doing the job of a city - drawing
off resources and people from the surrounding areas, and turning them
into wealth, and muck [1]. Trade was well developed by mediaeval
times: banks issuing paper money useful (so long as you're reasonably
wealthy), but given a degree of stability, it doesn't *have* to change
much to work.

Uberwald, contrariwise, has mountains, which mean *fast flowing water,
and from what we've seen of it, plenty of it - so no desperate need
for steam as a source of power unless there's a Really Big War (and
maybe a naval blockade to round things off), woods on a scale which
could provide vast amounts of charcoal if there was a shortage of good
quality coal [2], and dwarves. And since Carrot is Carrot
Ironfoundersson, it's a fair bet there's iron.

[1] We do know that Ankh-Morpork's muck, including ordure (as I
recall, I hope correctly) is being processed, presumably for all the
purposes of the early industrial revolution (fulling being the only
one I can bring to mind which requires the use of human waste).

[2] There's always the problem of the things/ people *in* those
woods: but dwarves can at least *move underground, and humans are
willing to do all sorts of things for enough money [3].

[3] So, as Uberwald becomes more "modern" in its civil arrangements,
charcoal, and therefore steel, may become cheaper.

Baba Yaga

[Mark Gallagher]

It's the end of the world as we know it, and Baba Yaga feels...

Post by Baba Yaga
Uberwald, contrariwise, has mountains, which mean *fast flowing water,
and from what we've seen of it, plenty of it - so no desperate need
for steam as a source of power unless there's a Really Big War (and
maybe a naval blockade to round things off), woods on a scale which
could provide vast amounts of charcoal if there was a shortage of good
quality coal [2], and dwarves. And since Carrot is Carrot
Ironfoundersson, it's a fair bet there's iron.

But Carrot is a Copperhead "dwarf", not Uberwaldian. (The Low King
seemed to believe in T5E that he could get his hands on iron,
though...)

[William Black]

Post by Baba Yaga

Post by William Black
Well they're not going to get steam power any time soon,

I may as well display my stupidity: why not?
Surely all it takes is one wizard with one idea, or one unseen
writing, which gets loose.

Because, to go back to Hero of Alexandria, you need a society where you
need steam engines, cheap physical power in large quantities, usually for
pumping mines dry or motive power for mills of some sort.

As Charles Fort said, it steam engines when it's steam engine time...

[@lec ©awley]

Post by @lec ©awley
Of course, you need a market large enough to consume the

Post by @lec ©awley
output of a multi-man pinnery: if the town can only consume the output
of one or two individual pinners, a large pinnery will go bust. So it is
likely that A-M is currently developing such large scale production as
we read. It has doubled in size since NW: mass production will be
becoming viable in more industries every year. But, of course, they
don't make it into the books unless PTerry finds them useful.

The activities of the pin collectors seem to imply that this just isn't the
case and that, in reality, there are a large number of small scale pin
makers.

That is in the past, and in many places. There *have been* many pinners,
many providing the local pin supply for their own small towns, just as
blacksmiths used to provide local manufacturing of iron components. Come
the industrial revolution, mass production put the blacksmith out of
most of the business other than the shoeing of horses, which requires
custom fitting and with which we mostly associate them today. On the
contrary, the appearance of collectors suggest that pins are changing
from a utilitarian device everybody has around to a mass production
device. Seventeenth century china, even of the most quotidian, is
collectable; today's china of far better intrinsic quality is dumped
when only a few items are broken.

Post by @lec ©awley
Remember, there's a shortage of people doing sewing, although there are
loads of seamstresses...

There is a shortage of repairers, but people don't seem to be going
round in rags. Somewhere there must be some kind of mass clothing
factories - a million people get through a lot of pairs of trousers. In
fact, we know of one tailor offering a suit with a spare pair of
trousers for (IIRC) AM$3 in Sorcery. That strikes me as being associated
with medium scale batch production, not one off hand crafting.

Not many (genuine) seamstresses in the UK nowadays: mass production
makes it easier to throw away and buy a new one. We repair only
expensive items like cars: plenty of car mechanics around.

[Brian Wakeling]

Post by @lec ©awley

Post by @lec ©awley
Of course, you need a market large enough to consume the

Post by @lec ©awley
output of a multi-man pinnery: if the town can only
consume the output of one or two individual pinners, a
large pinnery will go bust. So it is likely that A-M is
currently developing such large scale production as we
read. It has doubled in size since NW: mass production
will be becoming viable in more industries every year.
But, of course, they don't make it into the books unless
PTerry finds them useful.

The activities of the pin collectors seem to imply that
this just isn't the case and that, in reality, there are
a large number of small scale pin makers.

That is in the past, and in many places. There *have been*
many pinners, many providing the local pin supply for their
own small towns, just as blacksmiths used to provide local
manufacturing of iron components. Come the industrial
revolution, mass production put the blacksmith out of most
of the business other than the shoeing of horses, which
requires custom fitting and with which we mostly associate
them today. On the contrary, the appearance of collectors
suggest that pins are changing from a utilitarian device
everybody has around to a mass production device.
Seventeenth century china, even of the most quotidian, is
collectable; today's china of far better intrinsic quality
is dumped when only a few items are broken.

Post by @lec ©awley
Remember, there's a shortage of people doing sewing,
although there are loads of seamstresses...

There is a shortage of repairers, but people don't seem to
be going round in rags. Somewhere there must be some kind
of mass clothing factories - a million people get through a
lot of pairs of trousers. In fact, we know of one tailor
offering a suit with a spare pair of trousers for (IIRC)
AM$3 in Sorcery.

It was a AM$7 suit, in RM - Mustrum Ridcully wanted his
faculty to trip it up if it came past, as he wanted a look at
the label. "There aren't many tailors round here who would
throw in a second pair od pants for seven dollars!" This
suggests to me that either it was made by a mass
production-type tailors' giving a special offer to drum up
business, or by a sole trader-type bespoke tailor giving a
special offer to try and stay in business a bit longer before
being bought out by a bigger operation.

[Rhiannon Sands]

Post by @lec ©awley

Post by William Black
Remember, there's a shortage of people doing sewing, although there are
loads of seamstresses...

There is a shortage of repairers, but people don't seem to be going
round in rags. Somewhere there must be some kind of mass clothing
factories - a million people get through a lot of pairs of trousers. In
fact, we know of one tailor offering a suit with a spare pair of
trousers for (IIRC) AM$3 in Sorcery. That strikes me as being associated
with medium scale batch production, not one off hand crafting.

Well we saw a sewing factory in FOC didn't we? And, IIRC, it was implied
there were others.
--
Rhiannon_S
Famous last words No. 22:
"that doesn't look all that hard"

[Mike Stevens]

Post by @lec ©awley
That is in the past, and in many places. There *have been* many
pinners, many providing the local pin supply for their own small
towns, just as blacksmiths used to provide local manufacturing of
iron components. Come the industrial revolution, mass production put
the blacksmith out of most of the business other than the shoeing of
horses, which requires custom fitting and with which we mostly
associate them today.

I'm not sure that's true. when was young (1950s & early 60s) the market
town (in the UK) in which we lived had a blacksmith, whose forge was close
to our house. Kids used to hang around outside and watch him at work. I
don't recall ever seeing him shoe a horse, despite the fact that there must
have been quite a few individual horse-owners in the town at the time, as
well as a riding stables. And there were racing stables only few miles
away. In retrospect I suspect he took a portable forge out to the stables
when shoeing was called for.

So what work did I see him he doing in his forge? In the later years it was
nearly all decorative work - wrought-iron gates and the like. But earlier
he had seemed mainly occupied with repairing metal objects, many of them
agricultural implements.

So I suspect that the effect on blacksmiths of the industrial revolution
was to turn them from the makers of the relatively few iron & steel
implements used previously to menders of the much greater number of these
brought in by industrialisation.


--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus II
Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk

No man is an island. So is Man.

[William Black]

Post by Mike Stevens
I'm not sure that's true. when was young (1950s & early 60s) the market
town (in the UK) in which we lived had a blacksmith, whose forge was close
to our house. Kids used to hang around outside and watch him at work. I
don't recall ever seeing him shoe a horse, despite the fact that there must
have been quite a few individual horse-owners in the town at the time, as
well as a riding stables.

Blacksmiths don't shoe horses, farriers shoe horses.

[Paul Cooke]

Post by William Black

Post by Mike Stevens
I'm not sure that's true. when was young (1950s & early 60s) the market
town (in the UK) in which we lived had a blacksmith, whose forge was close
to our house. Kids used to hang around outside and watch him at work. I
don't recall ever seeing him shoe a horse, despite the fact that there

must

Post by Mike Stevens
have been quite a few individual horse-owners in the town at the time, as
well as a riding stables.

Blacksmiths don't shoe horses, farriers shoe horses.

just try saying that to Jason Ogg...

[William Black]

Post by Paul Cooke

Post by William Black
Blacksmiths don't shoe horses, farriers shoe horses.

just try saying that to Jason Ogg...

Jason Ogg, like most of his magical family, is multi skilled and multi
talented.

He also seems to be the only metal worker available...

[Diane L.]

Post by William Black

Post by Paul Cooke

Post by William Black
Blacksmiths don't shoe horses, farriers shoe horses.

just try saying that to Jason Ogg...

Jason Ogg, like most of his magical family, is multi skilled and
multi talented.
He also seems to be the only metal worker available...

In Lancre. Apart from the dwarfs.

Diane L.

[William Black]

Post by Diane L.

Post by William Black

Post by Paul Cooke

Post by William Black
Blacksmiths don't shoe horses, farriers shoe horses.

just try saying that to Jason Ogg...

Jason Ogg, like most of his magical family, is multi skilled and
multi talented.
He also seems to be the only metal worker available...

In Lancre. Apart from the dwarfs.

Do Dwarves shoe horses?

Should be fun to watch...

[Farkle Pingleblobber]

Post by William Black
Blacksmiths don't shoe horses, farriers shoe horses.

And tarriers drill.

But Terriers bark and chase squirrels.

-The Farkle
--
-How many pingles could a pingleblobber blob if a pingleblobber . .

[Lesley Weston]

Post by Farkle Pingleblobber

Post by William Black
Blacksmiths don't shoe horses, farriers shoe horses.

And tarriers drill.
But Terriers bark and chase squirrels.

Or drill on weekends and go camping for two weeks every summer.

[b***@yahoo.co.uk]

Post by Lesley Weston

Post by Farkle Pingleblobber

Post by William Black
Blacksmiths don't shoe horses, farriers shoe horses.

And tarriers drill.
But Terriers bark and chase squirrels.

Or drill on weekends and go camping for two weeks every summer.
--
Lesley Weston.
Brightly_coloured_blob is real, but I don't often check even the few bits
that get through Yahoo's filters. To reach me, use lesley att

vancouverbc

Post by Lesley Weston
dott nett, changing spelling and spacing as required.

Camping! Reminds me of the Monty Python sketch!(But not much of my time
in the TA

BriD
afpadmirer of CCA (and Stacey for TP GoL)

[Daibhid Ceannaideach]

Post by Lesley Weston

Post by Farkle Pingleblobber

Post by William Black
Blacksmiths don't shoe horses, farriers shoe horses.

And tarriers drill.
But Terriers bark and chase squirrels.

Or drill on weekends and go camping for two weeks every summer.

Unlike builders, who only drill on weekdays.

[Mike Stevens]

Post by William Black

Post by Mike Stevens
I'm not sure that's true. when was young (1950s & early 60s) the
market town (in the UK) in which we lived had a blacksmith, whose
forge was close to our house. Kids used to hang around outside and
watch him at work. I don't recall ever seeing him shoe a horse,
despite the fact that there must have been quite a few individual
horse-owners in the town at the time, as well as a riding stables.

Blacksmiths don't shoe horses, farriers shoe horses.

Many blacksmiths in rural areas used to double-up as farriers. Actually, I
believe that a farrier was soembody who did more than shoe horses - he
also treated them for ail;ments before the development of a separate
veterinary professiopn.


--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus II
Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk

No man is an island. So is Man.

[Dave A]

Post by @lec ©awley
And Karl Marx wrote at great length about how the productivity of a
multi-man production-line pinnery was much greater than that of the same
number of individual pinners (without any particularly advanced
machinery).

<pedant mode> 'Twas Adam Smith, writing at a time of rapid
industrialisation prior to the widespread use of steam power. </pedant
mode>

[@lec ©awley]

Post by Dave A

Post by @lec ©awley
And Karl Marx wrote at great length about how the productivity of a
multi-man production-line pinnery was much greater than that of the same
number of individual pinners (without any particularly advanced
machinery).

<pedant mode> 'Twas Adam Smith, writing at a time of rapid
industrialisation prior to the widespread use of steam power. </pedant
mode>

Correct - sorry. And illustrates my point the better thereby.

[Dave A]

Post by @lec ©awley

Post by Dave A
<pedant mode> 'Twas Adam Smith, writing at a time of rapid
industrialisation prior to the widespread use of steam power. </pedant
mode>

Correct - sorry. And illustrates my point the better thereby.

Precisely - and the accuracy of that aspect of DW as a "mirror of
worlds".

[JB]

Post by William Black

Post by Daibhid Ceannaideach

Post by William Black

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer

Post by William Black
I find it interesting that the engineering manager is obviously
what the tower staff turn into after many years in our world.
As Ankh-Morpork doesn't seem to have much in the way of industry,
and

what

Post by Joerg Ruedenauer

Post by William Black
there is seems to be small 'one-man-bands'?

It does have industry. Apart from the cunning artificers, there are
many dwarfs and even clothes mass production was mentioned.

But little of what we'd consider to be 'industrial engineering'

Do you think the "pinneries" hand craft each pin?

I hate to do this, it makes me sound almost devious...
I'm a re-enactor, I was once involved with another re-enactor who wanted to
have a simple low tech craft.
Pin making using a two part die and drawn wire was the solution, it's even
seriously relevant to medievalists as it uses drawn wire, one of the three
great medieval technological advances. Plus the equipment costs very
little, is reasonably easy to make and weighs a couple of pounds.
Early pins were made by individuals hitting a lump of metal hard with a
hammer to cold weld the coiled wire forming the head.
Pin making WAS a function of individual craftsmen...
I assume Mr Pratchett knows most of that already, otherwise Stanley
(Gibbons?) wouldn't have anything to collect.

Dude, to paraphrase William Shatner when he appeared on Saturday Night
Live "It's just a book... move
out of your parents' basement and live!"

[William Black]

Post by JB
Dude, to paraphrase William Shatner when he appeared on Saturday Night
Live "It's just a book... move
out of your parents' basement and live!"

One area of academic literary criticism is about the derivation of ideas.

Literature doesn't 'just happen'.

Have you considered the possibility that your comment is, in itself, a
rather sad reflection on the society you live in.

Or then again, perhaps you should learn not to take people too seriously
when they are discussing humorous novels...

[JB]

Post by William Black

Post by JB
Dude, to paraphrase William Shatner when he appeared on Saturday Night
Live "It's just a book... move
out of your parents' basement and live!"

One area of academic literary criticism is about the derivation of ideas.
Literature doesn't 'just happen'.

Oh. You're one of those....

Post by William Black
Have you considered the possibility that your comment is, in itself, a
rather sad reflection on the society you live in.

I guess I struck a nerve ... sorry, don't take it personally, dude.

Post by William Black
Or then again, perhaps you should learn not to take people too seriously
when they are discussing humorous novels...

Hey, Mr. pot, the kettle is calling for you ;)

[@lec ©awley]

Post by William Black
So, where does the Grand Trunk's Head of Engineering come from?

As with many Pratchett characters, he is an archetype. Any technically
challenging industry with any significant longevity will generate the
type. I am sure that the Pyramids and Stonehenge had their chief
engineers. Kipling's fiction is full of them. The Navy dockyards in the
17th century had them. You don't need a deep infrastructure, you just
need a few years of "Been there, done that, dropped the Tee-square".

[Mike Stevens]

Post by William Black
I find it interesting that the engineering manager is obviously what
the tower staff turn into after many years in our world.
As Ankh-Morpork doesn't seem to have much in the way of industry,
and what there is seems to be small 'one-man-bands'?

[snip]

Post by William Black
So, where does the Grand Trunk's Head of Engineering come from?

This thread is beginning to ring a lot of bells in my mind. This is almost
certainly a coincidence rather than an a deliberate reference by the author,
but the parallel intrigues me.

The name "Grand Trunk" is the same as that of a British canal [1]. It was
one of the early canals of the Industrrial Revolution and the UK's first
long-distance canal. At the time it was built the profession of canal
engineer was almost entirely a one-man band, the man being James Brindley.

Brindley had made his reputation as the egineer of the Duke of Bridgewater's
Canal which wasn;lt quitge the first of the Industrial Revolution but was
the first to get a lot of publicity. His original trade had been as a
mill-wright [2].

The Bridgewater Canal's main line was built over the period 1759 to 1763.
It was a huge success financially and inspired many investors with the idea
of building canals. And Brindley was their engineer of choice.

The Grand Trunk came only a few years later (begun 1766), and employed
Brindley as its engineer, as did many other canal schemes, which
necessitated him taking on a large staff. He became the head of what
nowadays we'd describe as a large engineering consultancy.

By the time Brindley died in 1772 [3], his many assistants had aquired the
skills of canal engineering. They went on to complete the canals he had
left unfinished, and several of them went on to become famous canal
engineers [4] in their own right.

So in just 11 years the role of canal engineer grew from a oner-man band to
a flourishing profession.

I think there's an interesting parallel here - but that may just be me.

[1] Known today as the Trent & Mersey Canal.

[2] But working on water-mills rather than wind-mills.

[3] Of overwork, it is said.

[4] And some of them had notable success in other fields of engineering as
well.


--
Mike Stevens
narowboat Felis Catus II
web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk

Million-to-one chances turn up nine times out of ten.
(Terry Pratchett)

[Richard Bos]

Post by Gideon Hallett
<spoiler space added>

Post by underthedisc
"Grandad" the tower captain was always working in the tower
control room when Princess was running a line, even though there
was always a boy in the other seat (presumably running the other
line).

Grandad was probably working in the control room at any given hour.
The role of senior technician seems to involve working every hour
on the clock, and for extended periods of time.
When you're the alpha geek, you're the one who has to fix anyone
that the lower lines of support can't deal with; and it's really
quite easy for that sort of job to fill all available time.

<g> Well, you should know.

Post by Gideon Hallett

Post by underthedisc
I would have thought it obvious why the manager would want
to chaperone two teenagers of opposite sexes who were workiing
together in cramped conditions.

I don't think you can judge clacksmen by normal human yardsticks
like that - as mentioned elsewhere, it takes a fairly unusual sort
of person to sit in a box, at a keyboard, in the middle of nowhere
for hours at a time.
I don't think whatnot really comes that high up on their list of
priorities.

Possibly not. OTOH, we're talking about teenagers here. Even most
teenaged geeks are interested in whatnotting. More importantly, though,
it would be quite high up on the list of their employers to prevent
undesirable whatnot under their responsibility, no matter how small the
chance from a geekish POV.

Richard