Whatever happened to Agnes?

[Brion K. Lienhart]

While I was reading Wintersmith, it finally dawned on me that Tiffany is
taking over the spot that Agnes Nitt should have had in the next couple
of Witch books. Young girl that's pretty good, but still needs a little
polishing around the edges.

I don't have a copy of Lords & Ladies to hand, but wasn't Ananagramma
one of the young witches that where gadding about? You'd think Agnes
would have at least got a mention as one of the coven members. Maybe she
already "graduated" and has her own steading, but then she should have
shown up at Miss Treason's party.

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 03 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Brion K. Lienhart
While I was reading Wintersmith, it finally dawned on me
that Tiffany is taking over the spot that Agnes Nitt should
have had in the next couple of Witch books. Young girl
that's pretty good, but still needs a little polishing
around the edges.
I don't have a copy of Lords & Ladies to hand, but wasn't
Ananagramma one of the young witches that where gadding
about? You'd think Agnes would have at least got a mention
as one of the coven members. Maybe she already "graduated"
and has her own steading, but then she should have shown up
at Miss Treason's party.

No, Annagramma wasn't part of the "kiddy coven" in L&L; the
Discworld timeline is dodgy at the best of times, but she was
probably about six during that book 8-). She does, however,
have the sort of name those witches have (Diamanda, Amanita,
and of course, Perdita).

Agnes has definitely "graduated"; in fact she jumped straight
from "not a witch" to getting Magrat's cottage, so yes, she
probably should have been at the Going Away Party. OTOH, she
probably was, but, from Tiff's POV, was just part of the
general crowd of pointy hats.

I agree she should get a proper appearance again soon.

[Sofia]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Agnes has definitely "graduated"; in fact she jumped straight
from "not a witch" to getting Magrat's cottage, so yes, she
probably should have been at the Going Away Party. OTOH, she
probably was, but, from Tiff's POV, was just part of the
general crowd of pointy hats.

MILD
SPOILER




I haven't a clue which novel Agnes Nitt got Magrat's cottage, as I'm still
reading Maskerade (nearly finished actually) but all through this book,
she seems to be giving me the impression that she *doesn't* actually want
to be a witch.

As I continued reading this morning, I found the bit where Agnes bumps
into Granny for the first time in the book, and she tries tell granny how
she doesn't want to be a witch, and wants to be an opera singer. It's only
when she decides she can't get out of it she tells Granny (end p315)...


"All right" she said "I'll help you if I can because I'm here. But
afterwards that's it! Afterwards, you'll leave me alone. Promise?"

"Certainly"

"Well...all right, then..." Agnes stopped "Oh no," she said "That was too
easy. I don't trust you."

"Don't trust me?" said Granny "You're saying you don't trust me?"

And Agnes has kept up this distrust of granny, and nanny ever since she
realised that they might have come for her - when she first saw Walter
feeding Greebo in the kitchen I think this was. So will the Witches have
persuaded her to join them before I get to the end of the book - beats me?

I seem to get on with Tiffany much more than Agnes, and so IMO I think she
would actually make a much better, more suitable 3rd witch to take over
from Magrat. She's very loyal and likable, and also seems to have the
makings of a witch inbuilt in her hereditary - No guesses who I'm voting
for if it should come down to it! :-)


Sofie

[Joe Bednorz]

Post by Sofia

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Agnes has definitely "graduated"; in fact she jumped straight
from "not a witch" to getting Magrat's cottage, so yes, she
probably should have been at the Going Away Party. OTOH, she
probably was, but, from Tiff's POV, was just part of the
general crowd of pointy hats.

MILD
SPOILER
I haven't a clue which novel Agnes Nitt got Magrat's cottage, as I'm still
reading Maskerade (nearly finished actually) but all through this book,
she seems to be giving me the impression that she *doesn't* actually want
to be a witch.

I don't think people become witches because they want to. I think
they become witches because they have to as a result of who they are.

Agnes will become a witch because she naturally does the things that a
witch does. That doesn't mean she wants to become a witch. That means
she will become a witch, no matter what she, or anyone else, wants.



(I'll also note that Granny Weatherwax may not like being a witch, but
she does know that she *is* one. That being the case she's going to be
the best witch she can be, which will be pretty d*mn good. Gytha Ogg
revels in being a witch when she feels like it, ignores it when
convenient, and cheerfully exploits every advantage she can get.)

Post by Sofia
As I continued reading this morning, I found the bit where Agnes bumps
into Granny for the first time in the book, and she tries tell granny how
she doesn't want to be a witch, and wants to be an opera singer. It's only
when she decides she can't get out of it she tells Granny (end p315)...
"All right" she said "I'll help you if I can because I'm here. But
afterwards that's it! Afterwards, you'll leave me alone. Promise?"
"Certainly"
"Well...all right, then..." Agnes stopped "Oh no," she said "That was too
easy. I don't trust you."
"Don't trust me?" said Granny "You're saying you don't trust me?"
And Agnes has kept up this distrust of granny, and nanny ever since she
realised that they might have come for her - when she first saw Walter
feeding Greebo in the kitchen I think this was. So will the Witches have
persuaded her to join them before I get to the end of the book - beats me?
I seem to get on with Tiffany much more than Agnes, and so IMO I think she
would actually make a much better, more suitable 3rd witch to take over
from Magrat. She's very loyal and likable, and also seems to have the
makings of a witch inbuilt in her hereditary - No guesses who I'm voting
for if it should come down to it! :-)

Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg are not trying to make Agnes a witch.
They just recognize that Agnes *is* a witch, or will inevitably become
one. What Agnes wants doesn't come into it. What Granny and Nanny want
doesn't come into it either.


The older witches aren't trying to push Agnes, just recognizing the
inevitable. (I think that confuses Agnes.) They don't try to make her
a witch any more than they try to stop her from being a witch.

A big part of being a witch is doing what needs to be done, whether
asked to or not, whether appreciated or not. Agnes does that.

So Agnes isn't fighting Esme and Gytha directly. She's doubting their
judgement, although I don't think she knows that. They don't fight
because nothing they can do will affect the outcome one way or another.
--
"I think that's the other reason I love the Discworld stories. One time
the story is all "myffy" when suddenly you stumble across the joke and
your head hits the next available wall while at another bit you laugh at
a joke or situation and almost swallow your tongue when you think about
it for a second longer." - Volker Hetzer in abp

Links to Gigabytes of Free Online SF Books: <http://www.mindspring.com/~jbednorz/Free/>

All the Best, Joe Bednorz

[Anery]

Post by Joe Bednorz

Post by Sofia

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Agnes has definitely "graduated"; in fact she jumped straight
from "not a witch" to getting Magrat's cottage, so yes, she
probably should have been at the Going Away Party. OTOH, she
probably was, but, from Tiff's POV, was just part of the
general crowd of pointy hats.

MILD
SPOILER
I haven't a clue which novel Agnes Nitt got Magrat's cottage, as I'm still
reading Maskerade (nearly finished actually) but all through this book,
she seems to be giving me the impression that she *doesn't* actually want
to be a witch.

I don't think people become witches because they want to. I think
they become witches because they have to as a result of who they are.
Agnes will become a witch because she naturally does the things that a
witch does. That doesn't mean she wants to become a witch. That means
she will become a witch, no matter what she, or anyone else, wants.
(I'll also note that Granny Weatherwax may not like being a witch, but
she does know that she *is* one. That being the case she's going to be
the best witch she can be, which will be pretty d*mn good. Gytha Ogg
revels in being a witch when she feels like it, ignores it when
convenient, and cheerfully exploits every advantage she can get.)

<snip>

Post by Joe Bednorz

Post by Sofia
And Agnes has kept up this distrust of granny, and nanny ever since she
realised that they might have come for her - when she first saw Walter
feeding Greebo in the kitchen I think this was. So will the Witches have
persuaded her to join them before I get to the end of the book - beats me?

<snip>

Post by Joe Bednorz
Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg are not trying to make Agnes a witch.
They just recognize that Agnes *is* a witch, or will inevitably become
one. What Agnes wants doesn't come into it. What Granny and Nanny want
doesn't come into it either.
The older witches aren't trying to push Agnes, just recognizing the
inevitable. (I think that confuses Agnes.) They don't try to make her
a witch any more than they try to stop her from being a witch.

Maybe not trying to _make_ her a witch, but helping her to recognize
the inevitability of her becoming one. They need a third witch to
replace Magrat who became Queen. They recognize that Agnes is the best
suitable in the vicinity. And meddling is something that witches do
naturally.

Post by Joe Bednorz
A big part of being a witch is doing what needs to be done, whether
asked to or not, whether appreciated or not. Agnes does that.
So Agnes isn't fighting Esme and Gytha directly. She's doubting their
judgement, although I don't think she knows that. They don't fight
because nothing they can do will affect the outcome one way or another.

She doesn't doubt their judgement so much. She secretly suspects that
she is becoming a witch, she just doesn't like it and doesn't want to
admit its inevitability.

Agnes had made a big character development from M!M to the end of CJ.

Post by Joe Bednorz
From the "wonderful personality" who is helpful and feels to be others'

doormat, she starts showing her nastier "Perdita" side and she becomes
more self-confident. Due to the events in CJ, at the end of the book
she starts to become rather Granny-like. I am not sure if I would like
more development in this direction. One can just hope that it was a
temporary change of character which evaporated in a couple of weeks,
just like the other influences on the Magpyrs. I liked Agnes most the
way she was in CJ before that change. She is one of the rare characters
on DW which are intelligent and capable but likable, not overconfident
or arrogant.

Anery

[Sofia]

Post by Anery
Agnes had made a big character development from M!M to the end of CJ.

Post by Joe Bednorz
From the "wonderful personality" who is helpful and feels to be others'

doormat, she starts showing her nastier "Perdita" side and she becomes
more self-confident. Due to the events in CJ, at the end of the book
she starts to become rather Granny-like. I am not sure if I would like
more development in this direction. One can just hope that it was a
temporary change of character which evaporated in a couple of weeks,
just like the other influences on the Magpyrs. I liked Agnes most the
way she was in CJ before that change. She is one of the rare characters
on DW which are intelligent and capable but likable, not overconfident
or arrogant.

Is Carpe Jugulem the novel where she also inherits Magrat's cottage, and
becomes the 3rd witch with Granny and Nanny - I haven't read that one
either, I'm afraid, I'm a little behind the rest of you. :-(


Sofie

[Anery]

Post by Sofia

Post by Anery
Agnes had made a big character development from M!M to the end of CJ.

Post by Joe Bednorz
From the "wonderful personality" who is helpful and feels to be others'

doormat, she starts showing her nastier "Perdita" side and she becomes
more self-confident. Due to the events in CJ, at the end of the book
she starts to become rather Granny-like. I am not sure if I would like
more development in this direction. One can just hope that it was a
temporary change of character which evaporated in a couple of weeks,
just like the other influences on the Magpyrs. I liked Agnes most the
way she was in CJ before that change. She is one of the rare characters
on DW which are intelligent and capable but likable, not overconfident
or arrogant.

Is Carpe Jugulem the novel where she also inherits Magrat's cottage, and
becomes the 3rd witch with Granny and Nanny - I haven't read that one
either, I'm afraid, I'm a little behind the rest of you. :-(

Yes, that's the book. There are no other Agnes books after Maskerade.

Actually, you are lucky to have several good books to look forward to.
And I am sure that there are many people who have read less DW books
than you.

Anery

[Elin]

Post by Anery

Post by Sofia

Post by Anery
Agnes had made a big character development from M!M to the end of CJ.

Post by Joe Bednorz
From the "wonderful personality" who is helpful and feels to be others'

doormat, she starts showing her nastier "Perdita" side and she becomes
more self-confident. Due to the events in CJ, at the end of the book
she starts to become rather Granny-like. I am not sure if I would like
more development in this direction. One can just hope that it was a
temporary change of character which evaporated in a couple of weeks,
just like the other influences on the Magpyrs. I liked Agnes most the
way she was in CJ before that change. She is one of the rare characters
on DW which are intelligent and capable but likable, not overconfident
or arrogant.

Is Carpe Jugulem the novel where she also inherits Magrat's cottage, and
becomes the 3rd witch with Granny and Nanny - I haven't read that one
either, I'm afraid, I'm a little behind the rest of you. :-(

Yes, that's the book. There are no other Agnes books after Maskerade.

Er, what about Carpe Jugulum?

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 07 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Elin

Post by Anery

Post by Sofia
Is Carpe Jugulem the novel where she also inherits
Magrat's cottage, and becomes the 3rd witch with Granny
and Nanny - I haven't read that one either, I'm afraid,
I'm a little behind the rest of you. :-(

Yes, that's the book. There are no other Agnes books after
Maskerade.

Er, what about Carpe Jugulum?

It threw me as well, but after reading the sentence carefully
a couple of times, I finally managed to parse it as:

"Yes, Carpe Jugulum is the book I'm talking about. There are
no Agnes books after Maskerade other than Carpe Jugulum."

[Anery]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 07 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Elin

Post by Anery

Post by Sofia
Is Carpe Jugulem the novel where she also inherits
Magrat's cottage, and becomes the 3rd witch with Granny
and Nanny - I haven't read that one either, I'm afraid,
I'm a little behind the rest of you. :-(

Yes, that's the book. There are no other Agnes books after
Maskerade.

Er, what about Carpe Jugulum?

It threw me as well, but after reading the sentence carefully
"Yes, Carpe Jugulum is the book I'm talking about. There are
no Agnes books after Maskerade other than Carpe Jugulum."

Yes, that was what I had in mind :-)
Was it _that_ incomprehensible?
Well, at least I can take comfort from George Mikes' statement that
nobody speaks English perfectly.

Anery

[Elin]

Post by Anery

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
It threw me as well, but after reading the sentence carefully
"Yes, Carpe Jugulum is the book I'm talking about. There are
no Agnes books after Maskerade other than Carpe Jugulum."

Yes, that was what I had in mind :-)
Was it _that_ incomprehensible?
Well, at least I can take comfort from George Mikes' statement that
nobody speaks English perfectly.

No, I just read it sloppily.

[Sofia]

Post by Anery
Yes, that was what I had in mind :-)
Was it _that_ incomprehensible?
Well, at least I can take comfort from George Mikes' statement that
nobody speaks English perfectly.

Thanks Anery, I understood it perfectly, and I hope Brion did too, as she
was a little confused too - we all make little mistakes sometimes! :-)


Sofie

[Quinn]

Post by Joe Bednorz

Post by Sofia

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Agnes has definitely "graduated"; in fact she jumped straight
from "not a witch" to getting Magrat's cottage, so yes, she
probably should have been at the Going Away Party. OTOH, she
probably was, but, from Tiff's POV, was just part of the
general crowd of pointy hats.

MILD
SPOILER
I haven't a clue which novel Agnes Nitt got Magrat's cottage, as I'm still
reading Maskerade (nearly finished actually) but all through this book,
she seems to be giving me the impression that she *doesn't* actually want
to be a witch.

I don't think people become witches because they want to. I think
they become witches because they have to as a result of who they are.
Agnes will become a witch because she naturally does the things that a
witch does. That doesn't mean she wants to become a witch. That means
she will become a witch, no matter what she, or anyone else, wants.
(I'll also note that Granny Weatherwax may not like being a witch, but
she does know that she *is* one. That being the case she's going to be
the best witch she can be, which will be pretty d*mn good. Gytha Ogg
revels in being a witch when she feels like it, ignores it when
convenient, and cheerfully exploits every advantage she can get.)

Post by Sofia
As I continued reading this morning, I found the bit where Agnes bumps
into Granny for the first time in the book, and she tries tell granny how
she doesn't want to be a witch, and wants to be an opera singer. It's only
when she decides she can't get out of it she tells Granny (end p315)...
"All right" she said "I'll help you if I can because I'm here. But
afterwards that's it! Afterwards, you'll leave me alone. Promise?"
"Certainly"
"Well...all right, then..." Agnes stopped "Oh no," she said "That was too
easy. I don't trust you."
"Don't trust me?" said Granny "You're saying you don't trust me?"
And Agnes has kept up this distrust of granny, and nanny ever since she
realised that they might have come for her - when she first saw Walter
feeding Greebo in the kitchen I think this was. So will the Witches have
persuaded her to join them before I get to the end of the book - beats me?
I seem to get on with Tiffany much more than Agnes, and so IMO I think she
would actually make a much better, more suitable 3rd witch to take over
from Magrat. She's very loyal and likable, and also seems to have the
makings of a witch inbuilt in her hereditary - No guesses who I'm voting
for if it should come down to it! :-)

Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg are not trying to make Agnes a witch.
They just recognize that Agnes *is* a witch, or will inevitably become
one. What Agnes wants doesn't come into it. What Granny and Nanny want
doesn't come into it either.
The older witches aren't trying to push Agnes, just recognizing the
inevitable. (I think that confuses Agnes.) They don't try to make her
a witch any more than they try to stop her from being a witch.
A big part of being a witch is doing what needs to be done, whether
asked to or not, whether appreciated or not. Agnes does that.
So Agnes isn't fighting Esme and Gytha directly. She's doubting their
judgement, although I don't think she knows that. They don't fight
because nothing they can do will affect the outcome one way or another.
--
"I think that's the other reason I love the Discworld stories. One time
the story is all "myffy" when suddenly you stumble across the joke and
your head hits the next available wall while at another bit you laugh at
a joke or situation and almost swallow your tongue when you think about
it for a second longer." - Volker Hetzer in abp
Links to Gigabytes of Free Online SF Books: <http://www.mindspring.com/~jbednorz/Free/>
All the Best, Joe Bednorz

Possible spoilers for Wintersmith . . .

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9


I think that Granny Weatherwax is perfectly capable of reshaping the
world - including Agnes Nitt - anyway Granny wants. If Granny wants
Agnes to be a witch, then by Offler that's the way it will be. Granny
will make Agnes a witch in much the same way that she is helping to
make Tiffany Aching a witch: she sets the world up so that it is the
only possible outcome. She even made _Annagramma_ a witch, despite
years of bad training by Mrs. Earwig.

Granny's approach is to arrange events so that others don't even know
there is a contest, let along what the rules are. It's Advanced
Headology. By letting Mrs. Earwig think she had won the "contest" over
Miss Treason's steading, Granny got exactly what she wanted: Annagramma
trained in Granny's brand of witchcraft. Neither Mrs. Earwig or
Annagramma (or even Tiffany) knew what was happening until it was too
late.

I think that Agnes, in a Granny Weatherwax-directed world, had little
if any choice about becoming a witch, as opposed to, say, an opera
star.

-Quinn

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 07 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Quinn

Post by Joe Bednorz
Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg are not trying to make
Agnes a witch.
They just recognize that Agnes *is* a witch, or will
inevitably become one. What Agnes wants doesn't come into
it. What Granny and Nanny want doesn't come into it
either.
The older witches aren't trying to push Agnes, just
recognizing the
inevitable. (I think that confuses Agnes.) They don't
try to make her a witch any more than they try to stop her
from being a witch.
A big part of being a witch is doing what needs to be
done, whether
asked to or not, whether appreciated or not. Agnes does
that.
So Agnes isn't fighting Esme and Gytha directly. She's
doubting their
judgement, although I don't think she knows that. They
don't fight because nothing they can do will affect the
outcome one way or another.

Possible spoilers for Wintersmith . . .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I think that Granny Weatherwax is perfectly capable of
reshaping the world - including Agnes Nitt - anyway Granny
wants. If Granny wants Agnes to be a witch, then by Offler
that's the way it will be. Granny will make Agnes a witch
in much the same way that she is helping to make Tiffany
Aching a witch: she sets the world up so that it is the
only possible outcome. She even made _Annagramma_ a witch,
despite years of bad training by Mrs. Earwig.

Both Tiffany and Annagramma, though, *want* to be witches, in
Tiffany's case before she's even *met* Granny. Agnes doesn't.
But right through Maskerade, she's *thinking* like a witch,
just like Tiff and, yes, even Annagramma somewhere beneath the
Earwigology.

If Agnes (or Tiff or Annagramma) *wasn't* the sort of person
who was going to be a witch anyway, I don't think Granny would
have pushed anything. Even in Agnes' case, while she is
pushing somewhat, all she does make it clear that if you have
the ability to always see what's really there, the world of
opera probably isn't for you...

[Emma Anne]

Post by Quinn
Possible spoilers for Wintersmith . . .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I think that Granny Weatherwax is perfectly capable of reshaping the
world - including Agnes Nitt - anyway Granny wants. If Granny wants
Agnes to be a witch, then by Offler that's the way it will be. Granny
will make Agnes a witch in much the same way that she is helping to
make Tiffany Aching a witch: she sets the world up so that it is the
only possible outcome. She even made _Annagramma_ a witch, despite
years of bad training by Mrs. Earwig.
Granny's approach is to arrange events so that others don't even know
there is a contest, let along what the rules are. It's Advanced
Headology. By letting Mrs. Earwig think she had won the "contest" over
Miss Treason's steading, Granny got exactly what she wanted: Annagramma
trained in Granny's brand of witchcraft. Neither Mrs. Earwig or
Annagramma (or even Tiffany) knew what was happening until it was too
late.
I think that Agnes, in a Granny Weatherwax-directed world, had little
if any choice about becoming a witch, as opposed to, say, an opera
star.

I have to disagree here. That would be treating people like things.

[Quinn]

Post by Emma Anne

Post by Quinn
Possible spoilers for Wintersmith . . .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I think that Granny Weatherwax is perfectly capable of reshaping the
world - including Agnes Nitt - anyway Granny wants. If Granny wants
Agnes to be a witch, then by Offler that's the way it will be. Granny
will make Agnes a witch in much the same way that she is helping to
make Tiffany Aching a witch: she sets the world up so that it is the
only possible outcome. She even made _Annagramma_ a witch, despite
years of bad training by Mrs. Earwig.
Granny's approach is to arrange events so that others don't even know
there is a contest, let along what the rules are. It's Advanced
Headology. By letting Mrs. Earwig think she had won the "contest" over
Miss Treason's steading, Granny got exactly what she wanted: Annagramma
trained in Granny's brand of witchcraft. Neither Mrs. Earwig or
Annagramma (or even Tiffany) knew what was happening until it was too
late.
I think that Agnes, in a Granny Weatherwax-directed world, had little
if any choice about becoming a witch, as opposed to, say, an opera
star.

I have to disagree here. That would be treating people like things.

Granny doesn't treat people like things. That would be Cackling, and
Granny is pretty careful about Cackling. Granny just knows how to
arrange the world so that people will do what she wants, generally for
their own good.

Granny's agreement to Annagramma taking Miss Treason's steading is an
example: it was very good for Annagramma (she became a much better
witch), exceptionally good for Tiffany (by distracting her until
spring), and good for Miss Treason's people (they got a better witch).
It might have even been good for Mrs. Earwig, although I won't insist
upon that.. No one was treated as a a thing; exactly the opposite in
fact.

Assuming we can even figure Granny out this far; I took Nanny Ogg's
comments to Tiffany about Granny to heart.

-Quinn

[Luna]

Post by Quinn
I think that Granny Weatherwax is perfectly capable of reshaping the
world - including Agnes Nitt - anyway Granny wants. If Granny wants
Agnes to be a witch, then by Offler that's the way it will be.

Didn't work on Esk.

[froarulv]

Post by Luna

Post by Quinn
I think that Granny Weatherwax is perfectly capable of reshaping the
world - including Agnes Nitt - anyway Granny wants. If Granny wants
Agnes to be a witch, then by Offler that's the way it will be.

Didn't work on Esk.

I believe that the story of Esk is part of a alternative past, and have
not happened to the Granny Weatherwax who is down the particular leg of
the trousers of thime witch Pterry is telling stories from at the
moment.

-Frank-

[Joe Bednorz]

Post by froarulv

Post by Luna

Post by Quinn
I think that Granny Weatherwax is perfectly capable of reshaping the
world - including Agnes Nitt - anyway Granny wants. If Granny wants
Agnes to be a witch, then by Offler that's the way it will be.

Didn't work on Esk.

I believe that the story of Esk is part of a alternative past, and have
not happened to the Granny Weatherwax who is down the particular leg of
the trousers of thime witch Pterry is telling stories from at the
moment.

Except that Granny staying along of Mrs. Palm in "Equal Rites" is
referenced in "Maskerade." Gytha was non-plussed.
--
"I think that's the other reason I love the Discworld stories. One time
the story is all "myffy" when suddenly you stumble across the joke and
your head hits the next available wall while at another bit you laugh at
a joke or situation and almost swallow your tongue when you think about
it for a second longer." - Volker Hetzer in abp

Links to Gigabytes of Free Online SF Books: <http://www.mindspring.com/~jbednorz/Free/>

All the Best, Joe Bednorz

[froarulv]

Post by Joe Bednorz

Post by froarulv

Post by Luna

Post by Quinn
I think that Granny Weatherwax is perfectly capable of reshaping the
world - including Agnes Nitt - anyway Granny wants. If Granny wants
Agnes to be a witch, then by Offler that's the way it will be.

Didn't work on Esk.

I believe that the story of Esk is part of a alternative past, and have
not happened to the Granny Weatherwax who is down the particular leg of
the trousers of thime witch Pterry is telling stories from at the
moment.

Except that Granny staying along of Mrs. Palm in "Equal Rites" is
referenced in "Maskerade." Gytha was non-plussed.

Point.

-Frank-

[Len Oil]

Post by Luna

Post by Quinn
I think that Granny Weatherwax is perfectly capable of reshaping the
world - including Agnes Nitt - anyway Granny wants. If Granny wants
Agnes to be a witch, then by Offler that's the way it will be.

Didn't work on Esk.

Apart from it being a Granny less experienced in the wider world
(arguably through the events of ER Granny got the confidence up to
export her prowess in WA and M!M, among others), there's already a
"Power Of Stories" thing going on.

When it is clear that the Staff will out, Granny sees that instead of
bringing the wizard to witchcraft, the way to go is to take the witch to
wizardry...

A change from the original plans, yes, but Granny isn't implacably
inflexible, even though it may sometimes seem so by the time all the
mind games have been completed but the actions still have to be played out.

After all, most of the situations where Granny reshapes the world, the
materials are people. Small fry, even in the case of her sister (master
manipulator herself, but stuck in a story rut) and elves, compared to
the Grandmaster Tournament that is the game against Destiny. And we can
see (CJ) how she deals with not just people but also the Beyond. People
are easy compared with that.

[Richard Eney]

<snip>

Post by Quinn

Post by Joe Bednorz
A big part of being a witch is doing what needs to be done, whether
asked to or not, whether appreciated or not. Agnes does that.
So Agnes isn't fighting Esme and Gytha directly. She's doubting their
judgement, although I don't think she knows that. They don't fight
because nothing they can do will affect the outcome one way or another.

Possible spoilers for Wintersmith . . .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I think that Granny Weatherwax is perfectly capable of reshaping the
world - including Agnes Nitt - any way Granny wants.

<snip>

Post by Quinn
Granny's approach is to arrange events so that others don't even know
there is a contest, let along what the rules are. It's Advanced
Headology. By letting Mrs. Earwig think she had won the "contest" over
Miss Treason's steading, Granny got exactly what she wanted: Annagramma
trained in Granny's brand of witchcraft. Neither Mrs. Earwig or
Annagramma (or even Tiffany) knew what was happening until it was too
late.

I'm pretty sure Tiffany knew what was happening. She just knew better
than to fight it. But she made sure that Granny knew that she knew.

=Tamar

[Joe Bednorz]

On 6 Nov 2006 16:53:42 -0800, Quinn wrote in

Post by Quinn

Post by Joe Bednorz

Post by Sofia

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Agnes has definitely "graduated"; in fact she jumped straight
from "not a witch" to getting Magrat's cottage, so yes, she
probably should have been at the Going Away Party. OTOH, she
probably was, but, from Tiff's POV, was just part of the
general crowd of pointy hats.

MILD
SPOILER
I haven't a clue which novel Agnes Nitt got Magrat's cottage, as I'm still
reading Maskerade (nearly finished actually) but all through this book,
she seems to be giving me the impression that she *doesn't* actually want
to be a witch.

I don't think people become witches because they want to. I think
they become witches because they have to as a result of who they are.
Agnes will become a witch because she naturally does the things that a
witch does. That doesn't mean she wants to become a witch. That means
she will become a witch, no matter what she, or anyone else, wants.
(I'll also note that Granny Weatherwax may not like being a witch, but
she does know that she *is* one. That being the case she's going to be
the best witch she can be, which will be pretty d*mn good. Gytha Ogg
revels in being a witch when she feels like it, ignores it when
convenient, and cheerfully exploits every advantage she can get.)

Post by Sofia
As I continued reading this morning, I found the bit where Agnes bumps
into Granny for the first time in the book, and she tries tell granny how
she doesn't want to be a witch, and wants to be an opera singer. It's only
when she decides she can't get out of it she tells Granny (end p315)...
"All right" she said "I'll help you if I can because I'm here. But
afterwards that's it! Afterwards, you'll leave me alone. Promise?"
"Certainly"
"Well...all right, then..." Agnes stopped "Oh no," she said "That was too
easy. I don't trust you."
"Don't trust me?" said Granny "You're saying you don't trust me?"
And Agnes has kept up this distrust of granny, and nanny ever since she
realised that they might have come for her - when she first saw Walter
feeding Greebo in the kitchen I think this was. So will the Witches have
persuaded her to join them before I get to the end of the book - beats me?
I seem to get on with Tiffany much more than Agnes, and so IMO I think she
would actually make a much better, more suitable 3rd witch to take over
from Magrat. She's very loyal and likable, and also seems to have the
makings of a witch inbuilt in her hereditary - No guesses who I'm voting
for if it should come down to it! :-)

Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg are not trying to make Agnes a witch.
They just recognize that Agnes *is* a witch, or will inevitably become
one. What Agnes wants doesn't come into it. What Granny and Nanny want
doesn't come into it either.
The older witches aren't trying to push Agnes, just recognizing the
inevitable. (I think that confuses Agnes.) They don't try to make her
a witch any more than they try to stop her from being a witch.
A big part of being a witch is doing what needs to be done, whether
asked to or not, whether appreciated or not. Agnes does that.
So Agnes isn't fighting Esme and Gytha directly. She's doubting their
judgement, although I don't think she knows that. They don't fight
because nothing they can do will affect the outcome one way or another.
--
"I think that's the other reason I love the Discworld stories. One time
the story is all "myffy" when suddenly you stumble across the joke and
your head hits the next available wall while at another bit you laugh at
a joke or situation and almost swallow your tongue when you think about
it for a second longer." - Volker Hetzer in abp
Links to Gigabytes of Free Online SF Books: <http://www.mindspring.com/~jbednorz/Free/>
All the Best, Joe Bednorz

Possible spoilers for Wintersmith . . .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I think that Granny Weatherwax is perfectly capable of reshaping the
world - including Agnes Nitt - anyway Granny wants.

That wouldn't be reshaping the world. That would be reshaping Agnes.
Granny doesn't do that. Note in AHfoS that Granny gives reasons for
moving a well that the people will accept, rather than trying to change
their minds with the truth.

Post by Quinn
If Granny wants
Agnes to be a witch, then by Offler that's the way it will be.

I believe you're confusing Granny's wishes with what Granny recognizes
will be, whether she wants it or not. (This confusion also seems to
occur over the Patrician. Just because he always accepts the world and
works with it as it is people think he always gets his way.)

Post by Quinn
Granny
will make Agnes a witch in much the same way that she is helping to
make Tiffany Aching a witch: she sets the world up so that it is the
only possible outcome. She even made _Annagramma_ a witch, despite
years of bad training by Mrs. Earwig.

Not even Granny could make a witch out of someone with no power.

Agnes and Tiffany both have power. This is pointed up in Masquerade
when Gytha says something like "The voice is just the power finding a
way to be heard."

All Granny can do is try to help them make good use of the power.
Note that the power chooses to express itself. Granny has nothing to do
with that. Even the help Granny gives could be seen more as damage
control than as "forcing" someone to be a witch.

And not even Granny could have made witches out of the rest of the
"coven" of wannabes in Lords & Ladies. They didn't have the power. Nor
did they have the determination necessary to make a good witch out of
someone powerless. That was the real meaning of her dismissal of them.
No one who was really a witch would have accepted that. At best they
might have made helpers, but never have been worthy of inheriting a
cottage.

Post by Quinn
Granny's approach is to arrange events so that others don't even know
there is a contest, let along what the rules are.

Again, here I think Granny's calm acceptance of reality is being
confused with desiring the results.

Post by Quinn
It's Advanced
Headology. By letting Mrs. Earwig think she had won the "contest" over
Miss Treason's steading, Granny got exactly what she wanted: Annagramma
trained in Granny's brand of witchcraft. Neither Mrs. Earwig or
Annagramma (or even Tiffany) knew what was happening until it was too
late.

Here I can't comment. I haven't read Wintersmith.

Post by Quinn
I think that Agnes, in a Granny Weatherwax-directed world,

Granny Weatherwax does not direct the world. She can't. Nor does she
want to. What Granny does is try minimize the amount of harm done to
and by those who don't deserve it.

Post by Quinn
had little
if any choice about becoming a witch, as opposed to, say, an opera
star.

Reality prevented Agnes from becoming the opera star she deserved to
be. Unfortunately, in the modern Discworld looks are more important
than talent. (Anyone else think Terry Pratchett is making a statement
about the modern music industry? Hmmm - then who does "Christine"
represent? A certain C. Aguilera fits the name, but B. Spears seems to
fit the airhead talentless blonde role a bit better.)


I think if Granny could have, she would have made Agnes an opera star.
That might have made Agnes happier, and made the world a better place.
But not even Granny can fight the whole world.

What confuses people is that she neither tries to nor whines that she
can't. She just gets on with doing what she can, changing goals and
approaches as rapidly as the situation changes. E.g.: Going from
fighting the muggers to patching them up as quickly as Walter dispatched
the criminals.

What I'm starting to find interesting is how just accepting reality is
often regarded as controlling reality.
--
"I think that's the other reason I love the Discworld stories. One time
the story is all "myffy" when suddenly you stumble across the joke and
your head hits the next available wall while at another bit you laugh at
a joke or situation and almost swallow your tongue when you think about
it for a second longer." - Volker Hetzer in abp

Links to Gigabytes of Free Online SF Books: <http://www.mindspring.com/~jbednorz/Free/>

All the Best, Joe Bednorz

[Emma Anne]

(no spoilers)

Post by Joe Bednorz
I believe you're confusing Granny's wishes with what Granny recognizes
will be, whether she wants it or not. (This confusion also seems to
occur over the Patrician. Just because he always accepts the world and
works with it as it is people think he always gets his way.)

I think you're quite right, and when you read Wintersmith I think you'll
find it confirms your theory (though there is a reasonable argument for
the other theory as well).

[Richard Bos]

Post by Joe Bednorz
On 6 Nov 2006 16:53:42 -0800, Quinn wrote in

Spoilers only for Maskerade now...

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

Post by Joe Bednorz

had little if any choice about becoming a witch, as opposed to, say,
an opera star.

Reality prevented Agnes from becoming the opera star she deserved to
be. Unfortunately, in the modern Discworld looks are more important
than talent. (Anyone else think Terry Pratchett is making a statement
about the modern music industry? Hmmm - then who does "Christine"
represent? A certain C. Aguilera fits the name, but B. Spears seems to
fit the airhead talentless blonde role a bit better.)

No, I really don't think so. It's a modification of the Phantom of the
Opera story; if anything, PTerry is making a statement about the modern
musical industry, not the pop scene. After all, Madames Aguilera and
Spears _do_ sing themselves.
Now if it'd been two marketable _guys_ being back-vocaled by two other
guys with actual singing voices... but it isn't.

Richard

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 08:09:46 GMT, Joe Bednorz
<***@invalid.invalid> wrote:

_Maskerade_

Post by Joe Bednorz
(Anyone else think Terry Pratchett is making a statement
about the modern music industry? Hmmm - then who does "Christine"
represent? A certain C. Aguilera fits the name, but B. Spears seems to
fit the airhead talentless blonde role a bit better.)

M was published 1996, so those two wouldn't be in the running.

Cheers - Jaimie

[Sabremeister Brian]

In a speech called

Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 08:09:46 GMT, Joe Bednorz
_Maskerade_

Post by Joe Bednorz
(Anyone else think Terry Pratchett is making a statement
about the modern music industry? Hmmm - then who does "Christine"
represent? A certain C. Aguilera fits the name, but B. Spears
seems
to fit the airhead talentless blonde role a bit better.)

And there's a P. Hilton who fits the singing ability.

Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
M was published 1996, so those two wouldn't be in the running.

You're right, those three wouldn't be in the running. But that doesn't
mean to say there weren't untalented airheads running around trying to
sing in 1995 (when the book was being written).

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 00:51:07 -0000, "Sabremeister Brian"

Post by Sabremeister Brian
In a speech called

Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 08:09:46 GMT, Joe Bednorz
_Maskerade_

Post by Joe Bednorz
(Anyone else think Terry Pratchett is making a statement
about the modern music industry? Hmmm - then who does "Christine"
represent? A certain C. Aguilera fits the name, but B. Spears
seems
to fit the airhead talentless blonde role a bit better.)

And there's a P. Hilton who fits the singing ability.

Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
M was published 1996, so those two wouldn't be in the running.

You're right, those three wouldn't be in the running. But that doesn't
mean to say there weren't untalented airheads running around trying to
sing in 1995 (when the book was being written).

Absolutely. Pterry usually goes for the archetypes rather than
specific incarnations of same, and for good reason - the references
doesn't date so quickly.

Cheers - Jaimie

[Alec Cawley]

Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 00:51:07 -0000, "Sabremeister Brian"

Post by Sabremeister Brian
In a speech called

Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 08:09:46 GMT, Joe Bednorz
_Maskerade_

Post by Joe Bednorz
(Anyone else think Terry Pratchett is making a statement
about the modern music industry? Hmmm - then who does "Christine"
represent? A certain C. Aguilera fits the name, but B. Spears
seems
to fit the airhead talentless blonde role a bit better.)

And there's a P. Hilton who fits the singing ability.

Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
M was published 1996, so those two wouldn't be in the running.

You're right, those three wouldn't be in the running. But that doesn't
mean to say there weren't untalented airheads running around trying to
sing in 1995 (when the book was being written).

Absolutely. Pterry usually goes for the archetypes rather than
specific incarnations of same, and for good reason - the references
doesn't date so quickly.

ISTR that Mozart had the same problem, so the problem is, if not
timeless, certainly long standing.

Actually, it probably started not long before Mozart, because most
preceding Western cultures didn't allow women on the stage - hence the
need for castrati.

[John F. Eldredge]

Post by Alec Cawley

Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 00:51:07 -0000, "Sabremeister Brian"

Post by Sabremeister Brian
In a speech called

Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 08:09:46 GMT, Joe Bednorz
_Maskerade_

Post by Joe Bednorz
(Anyone else think Terry Pratchett is making a statement
about the modern music industry? Hmmm - then who does "Christine"
represent? A certain C. Aguilera fits the name, but B. Spears
seems
to fit the airhead talentless blonde role a bit better.)

And there's a P. Hilton who fits the singing ability.

Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
M was published 1996, so those two wouldn't be in the running.

You're right, those three wouldn't be in the running. But that doesn't
mean to say there weren't untalented airheads running around trying to
sing in 1995 (when the book was being written).

Absolutely. Pterry usually goes for the archetypes rather than
specific incarnations of same, and for good reason - the references
doesn't date so quickly.

ISTR that Mozart had the same problem, so the problem is, if not
timeless, certainly long standing.
Actually, it probably started not long before Mozart, because most
preceding Western cultures didn't allow women on the stage - hence the
need for castrati.

I would presume there were still air-headed would-be stars prior to
this time; they were just male or castrati airheads.

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 13 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Joe Bednorz

Post by Quinn
Possible spoilers for Wintersmith . . .
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
I think that Granny Weatherwax is perfectly capable of
reshaping the world - including Agnes Nitt - anyway Granny
wants.

That wouldn't be reshaping the world. That would be
reshaping Agnes.
Granny doesn't do that. Note in AHfoS that Granny gives
reasons for moving a well that the people will accept,
rather than trying to change their minds with the truth.

Agreed, although in this case Granny isn't so much operating
from any feeling that these people should be allowed not to
believe in germs if they don't want to, as from a knowledge
that they're just to stupidly stubborn to accept it. So she
"reshapes the world"; makes it into one where they *will* move
the well by lying about it.

Post by Joe Bednorz

Post by Quinn
If Granny wants
Agnes to be a witch, then by Offler that's the way it will
be.

I believe you're confusing Granny's wishes with what
Granny recognizes
will be, whether she wants it or not. (This confusion also
seems to occur over the Patrician. Just because he always
accepts the world and works with it as it is people think
he always gets his way.)

Sometimes. Other times both V. and Granny *do* manipulate
things the way they want; consider the claim in one of the
books that the Patrician has set up many of the organisations
trying to overthrow him, thereby ensuring they're all fighting
each other.

Post by Joe Bednorz
Not even Granny could make a witch out of someone with no
power.
And not even Granny could have made witches out of the
rest of the
"coven" of wannabes in Lords & Ladies. They didn't have
the power. Nor did they have the determination necessary
to make a good witch out of someone powerless. That was
the real meaning of her dismissal of them. No one who was
really a witch would have accepted that. At best they
might have made helpers, but never have been worthy of
inheriting a cottage.

Agreed.

Post by Joe Bednorz

Post by Quinn
Granny's approach is to arrange events so that others don't
even know there is a contest, let along what the rules are.

Again, here I think Granny's calm acceptance of reality
is being
confused with desiring the results.

Ye-e-e-ah, although Granny only accepts reality if she doesn't
parti

Post by Joe Bednorz

Post by Quinn
It's Advanced
Headology. By letting Mrs. Earwig think she had won the
"contest" over Miss Treason's steading, Granny got exactly
what she wanted: Annagramma trained in Granny's brand of
witchcraft. Neither Mrs. Earwig or Annagramma (or even
Tiffany) knew what was happening until it was too late.

Here I can't comment. I haven't read Wintersmith.

Post by Quinn
I think that Agnes, in a Granny Weatherwax-directed world,

Granny Weatherwax does not direct the world. She can't.
Nor does she
want to. What Granny does is try minimize the amount of
harm done to and by those who don't deserve it.

Post by Quinn
had little
if any choice about becoming a witch, as opposed to, say,
an opera star.

Reality prevented Agnes from becoming the opera star she
deserved to
be. Unfortunately, in the modern Discworld looks are more
important than talent. (Anyone else think Terry Pratchett
is making a statement about the modern music industry?
Hmmm - then who does "Christine" represent? A certain C.
Aguilera fits the name, but B. Spears seems to fit the
airhead talentless blonde role a bit better.)

Agreed.

Post by Joe Bednorz
I think if Granny could have, she would have made Agnes
an opera star.
That might have made Agnes happier, and made the world a
better place. But not even Granny can fight the whole
world.

I think Granny *could* have made Agnes an opera star, if she'd
really tried, but recognised that this *wouldn't* have made
her happy. Agnes was too sensible for opera right from the
start. The best that would have happened there is that she'd
have become Perdita permenantly. But that probably ties into
what you were saying about how Granny can't change the world;
she can make Agnes realise opera isn't the place for her, but
she can't make opera realise Agnes could have had a place
there. And if it did, if it started accepting substance over
style, it probably wouldn't be opera any more...

Post by Joe Bednorz
What confuses people is that she neither tries to nor
whines that she
can't. She just gets on with doing what she can, changing
goals and approaches as rapidly as the situation changes.
E.g.: Going from fighting the muggers to patching them up
as quickly as Walter dispatched the criminals.
What I'm starting to find interesting is how just
accepting reality is
often regarded as controlling reality.

But she often *is* fighting reality, or the closest Discworld
equivilent, The Story, and winning. Ella Saturday is
"supposed" to marry the Prince. The Ghost is "supposed" to get
beaten to death by the mob and thrown on the river. People who
get bitten by vampires are "supposed" to become dolcile
thralls or subservient vampires. And in every case Granny
Weatherwax says "Not in a world that's got me in it they're
not."

Don't get me wrong, I agree she wasn't manipulating Agnes,
just helping her realise something she already knew, I just
thought you were overstating her non-manipulativeness in
general.

OTOH, if you want to talk about the real manipulative genius
of Maskerade, who realised they needed a new third witch? Who
came up with a reason for them to go to A-M and "drop in" on
Agnes? Don't underestemate Gytha Ogg. She looks like the nice,
harmless one because she *wants* to look like that...

[Emma Anne]

Daibhid Ceanaideach <***@aol.com> wrote:

very small spoiler

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Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
OTOH, if you want to talk about the real manipulative genius
of Maskerade, who realised they needed a new third witch? Who
came up with a reason for them to go to A-M and "drop in" on
Agnes? Don't underestemate Gytha Ogg. She looks like the nice,
harmless one because she *wants* to look like that...

I have *never* thought of Nanny as nice or harmless. In fact, I don't
even like her much.

[Alec Cawley]

Post by Emma Anne
very small spoiler
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Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
OTOH, if you want to talk about the real manipulative genius
of Maskerade, who realised they needed a new third witch? Who
came up with a reason for them to go to A-M and "drop in" on
Agnes? Don't underestemate Gytha Ogg. She looks like the nice,
harmless one because she *wants* to look like that...

I have *never* thought of Nanny as nice or harmless. In fact, I don't
even like her much.

I agree. She is a serial bully who is very happy to make her
daughter-in-law's lives miserable, take much more than her fair share of
anything going, and is happy to bend the whole of Lancre town's culture
about her tastes.

She also genuinely loves children, will support her family to the death,
and does much healing. But the good in her - which is large - should not
conceal the bad, which is also large. She is actually much more
manipulative than Granny, but she gets away with it becasue see is seen
to be a lovable old woman, whereas Granny is seen to be a crabby old stick.

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 14 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Alec Cawley

Post by Emma Anne
very small spoiler
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Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
OTOH, if you want to talk about the real manipulative
genius of Maskerade, who realised they needed a new third
witch? Who came up with a reason for them to go to A-M
and "drop in" on Agnes? Don't underestemate Gytha Ogg.
She looks like the nice, harmless one because she *wants*
to look like that...

I have *never* thought of Nanny as nice or harmless. In
fact, I don't even like her much.

I agree. She is a serial bully who is very happy to make
her daughter-in-law's lives miserable, take much more than
her fair share of anything going, and is happy to bend the
whole of Lancre town's culture about her tastes.

As opposed to Granny who's, er, a serial bully whose happy to
make *everyone's* lives miserable, takes more than her fair
share of anything going, and is happy to bend the whole of
Lancre *kingdom* about her tastes...

[Mark Foweraker]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 14 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Alec Cawley

Post by Emma Anne
very small spoiler
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Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
OTOH, if you want to talk about the real manipulative
genius of Maskerade, who realised they needed a new third
witch? Who came up with a reason for them to go to A-M
and "drop in" on Agnes? Don't underestemate Gytha Ogg.
She looks like the nice, harmless one because she *wants*
to look like that...

I have *never* thought of Nanny as nice or harmless. In
fact, I don't even like her much.

I agree. She is a serial bully who is very happy to make
her daughter-in-law's lives miserable, take much more than
her fair share of anything going, and is happy to bend the
whole of Lancre town's culture about her tastes.

As opposed to Granny who's, er, a serial bully

The same way police men are?

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
whose happy tomake *everyone's* lives miserable,

Not really, she mostly makes people see what's there, and that instead
of the fluffy p[ink world may make them miserable

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
takes more than her fair share of anything going,

Apart from a few weaknesses, sugar, plain biscuits and old clothes,
Granny seems to take (or be given) very little in the normal run of things.

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
and is happy to bend the whole of Lancre *kingdom* about her tastes...

No she bent (accelerated) history around the tastes of the kingdom (i.e.
the land and its majority inhabitants)

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 15 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Mark Foweraker

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 14 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Alec Cawley

Post by Emma Anne
I have *never* thought of Nanny as nice or harmless. In
fact, I don't even like her much.

I agree. She is a serial bully who is very happy to make
her daughter-in-law's lives miserable, take much more
than her fair share of anything going, and is happy to
bend the whole of Lancre town's culture about her tastes.

As opposed to Granny who's, er, a serial bully

The same way police men are?

Hey, Alec was the one who claimed this as a bad thing,
remember? I'm just pointing out it applies equally.

Post by Mark Foweraker

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
whose happy tomake *everyone's* lives miserable,

Not really, she mostly makes people see what's there, and
that instead of the fluffy p[ink world may make them
miserable

I can think of occassions when she's done that. I can think of
far more where she's flat-out lied to ensure people are
showing proper respect (ie. are scared of her).

Post by Mark Foweraker

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
takes more than her fair share of anything going,

Apart from a few weaknesses, sugar, plain biscuits and old
clothes, Granny seems to take (or be given) very little in
the normal run of things.

Fair point. But what she does take is demanded with menaces.

("I wouldn't want to go putting people under obligation just
'cos I'm a witch. Everyone in your family blessed with good
health?")

Post by Mark Foweraker

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
and is happy to bend the whole of Lancre *kingdom* about
her tastes...

No she bent (accelerated) history around the tastes of the
kingdom (i.e. the land and its majority inhabitants)

On one occasion. It doesn't change the fact that the entire
kingdom is, in fact, run on the principle of "Granny wouldn't
hold with that".

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's described in HFoS as
the mark of the best witches, such as Granny Aching. But it
does seem to me that things we take for granted as basic parts
of Granny Weatherwax's Weatherwaxiness are being used as
reasons to classify Nanny as not a nice person.

Yes, they both have negative aspects to their personalities.
All Discworld heroes, with the exception of Brutha, and
*possibly* Carrot, do. That's what makes the books
interesting.

[Anery]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 15 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Mark Foweraker

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 14 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Alec Cawley

Post by Emma Anne
I have *never* thought of Nanny as nice or harmless. In
fact, I don't even like her much.

I agree. She is a serial bully who is very happy to make
her daughter-in-law's lives miserable, take much more
than her fair share of anything going, and is happy to
bend the whole of Lancre town's culture about her tastes.

As opposed to Granny who's, er, a serial bully

The same way police men are?

Hey, Alec was the one who claimed this as a bad thing,
remember? I'm just pointing out it applies equally.

Post by Mark Foweraker

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
whose happy tomake *everyone's* lives miserable,

Not really, she mostly makes people see what's there, and
that instead of the fluffy p[ink world may make them
miserable

I can think of occassions when she's done that. I can think of
far more where she's flat-out lied to ensure people are
showing proper respect (ie. are scared of her).

Post by Mark Foweraker

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
takes more than her fair share of anything going,

Apart from a few weaknesses, sugar, plain biscuits and old
clothes, Granny seems to take (or be given) very little in
the normal run of things.

Fair point. But what she does take is demanded with menaces.
("I wouldn't want to go putting people under obligation just
'cos I'm a witch. Everyone in your family blessed with good
health?")

Post by Mark Foweraker

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
and is happy to bend the whole of Lancre *kingdom* about
her tastes...

No she bent (accelerated) history around the tastes of the
kingdom (i.e. the land and its majority inhabitants)

On one occasion. It doesn't change the fact that the entire
kingdom is, in fact, run on the principle of "Granny wouldn't
hold with that".
Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's described in HFoS as
the mark of the best witches, such as Granny Aching. But it
does seem to me that things we take for granted as basic parts
of Granny Weatherwax's Weatherwaxiness are being used as
reasons to classify Nanny as not a nice person.

Because Granny is the crone. She is supposed to be nasty.

But Nanny is presented as an amiable personality who is good at making
people feeling at home in their own home. And then we get to know that:
- her daughters-in-law are terrified by her and she is treating them
with contempt,
- even her sons are a bit afraid of her,
- the driver of the coach to Ankh-Morpork (and perhaps the rest of the
passengers too, with the exception of Henry Slugg) in Maskerade
undergoes a living hell just because of her whims,
- when she has a bath, the whole Lancre is in terror,
- and so on.

So I would say that the classification is 'not such a nice person as
she was told us to be'.
Still, if I had to choose company, I would probably prefer Nanny to
Granny. But I would carefully avoid even a look at her sons.

<snip>

Anery

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 16 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Anery

But it does seem to me that things we take for
granted as basic parts of Granny Weatherwax's
Weatherwaxiness are being used as reasons to classify
Nanny as not a nice person.

Because Granny is the crone. She is supposed to be nasty.
But Nanny is presented as an amiable personality who is
good at making people feeling at home in their own home.

And by and large, she is. But note the phrasing there: You
shouldn't *have* to be *made* to feel at home in your own
homw, but Nanny radiates the same field Granny and some of the
wizards do, that whereever she is is *her* territory, not
yours. She's just less agressive about it.

Post by Anery
So I would say that the classification is 'not such a nice
person as she was told us to be'.
Still, if I had to choose company, I would probably prefer
Nanny to Granny. But I would carefully avoid even a look at
her sons.

Agreed.

I've been thinking about this and an interesting thought
occured to me. A central part of the books is that Granny
Weatherwax is Right, and that, as per Steven Sondheim, this is
not the same thing as Nice, although it usually seems to be
the same as Good, at least from Granny's perspective. Magrat,
on the other hand, is Nice, rarely Right and tries to be Good
but hasn't grasped the basics ("It can't be bad if *we're*
doing it"). From this perspective I'm wondering if Nanny, who
isn't as Nice as she seems, and rarely bothers about Right, is
meant to be basically Good? And if so, what does that actually
mean?

[Anery]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 16 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Anery

But it does seem to me that things we take for
granted as basic parts of Granny Weatherwax's
Weatherwaxiness are being used as reasons to classify
Nanny as not a nice person.

Because Granny is the crone. She is supposed to be nasty.
But Nanny is presented as an amiable personality who is
good at making people feeling at home in their own home.

And by and large, she is. But note the phrasing there: You
shouldn't *have* to be *made* to feel at home in your own
homw, but Nanny radiates the same field Granny and some of the
wizards do, that whereever she is is *her* territory, not
yours. She's just less agressive about it.

Yes, this is one point of view. But I think that she is genuinly
causing people feel better in her company (when she wants to). She
radiates a field of 'it will be all right'ness in situations of
distress.

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach

Post by Anery
So I would say that the classification is 'not such a nice
person as she was told us to be'.
Still, if I had to choose company, I would probably prefer
Nanny to Granny. But I would carefully avoid even a look at
her sons.

Agreed.
I've been thinking about this and an interesting thought
occured to me. A central part of the books is that Granny
Weatherwax is Right, and that, as per Steven Sondheim, this is
not the same thing as Nice, although it usually seems to be
the same as Good, at least from Granny's perspective. Magrat,
on the other hand, is Nice, rarely Right and tries to be Good
but hasn't grasped the basics ("It can't be bad if *we're*
doing it"). From this perspective I'm wondering if Nanny, who
isn't as Nice as she seems, and rarely bothers about Right, is
meant to be basically Good? And if so, what does that actually
mean?

Certainly an interesting question.
It seems to me that somewhere in the books (WA? CJ? ) it was stated
that there are no such things as Good or Bad, only Right and Wrong. But
maybe it was just the standpoint of Granny.
On the other paw, a scene from Maskerade springs to mind: Granny
withdrawing a rusty needle at the wounded attackers with an evil smile
and saying: "Let's make some Good."

Lily Weatherwax considers herself "the good one".

There are a lot of meanings of "Good" in DW books.

Anery

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 16 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Anery

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 16 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Anery
But Nanny is presented as an amiable personality who is
good at making people feeling at home in their own home.

And by and large, she is. But note the phrasing there: You
shouldn't *have* to be *made* to feel at home in your own
homw, but Nanny radiates the same field Granny and some of
the wizards do, that whereever she is is *her* territory,
not yours. She's just less agressive about it.

Yes, this is one point of view. But I think that she is
genuinly causing people feel better in her company (when
she wants to). She radiates a field of 'it will be all
right'ness in situations of distress.

Oh, absolutely. But if they stopped to think about it, they'd
realise they were feeling better on *her* terms.

But, then, as long as you *do* feel better, why think about
it? You can't help it with Granny, because her idea of helping
is to make you angry and confrontational, so you'll deal with
the problem, but Nanny takes control in a "nice" way (unless
you're a daughter-in-law 8-(...).

[Anery]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 16 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Anery

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 16 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Anery
But Nanny is presented as an amiable personality who is
good at making people feeling at home in their own home.

And by and large, she is. But note the phrasing there: You
shouldn't *have* to be *made* to feel at home in your own
homw, but Nanny radiates the same field Granny and some of
the wizards do, that whereever she is is *her* territory,
not yours. She's just less agressive about it.

Yes, this is one point of view. But I think that she is
genuinly causing people feel better in her company (when
she wants to). She radiates a field of 'it will be all
right'ness in situations of distress.

Oh, absolutely. But if they stopped to think about it, they'd
realise they were feeling better on *her* terms.
But, then, as long as you *do* feel better, why think about
it? You can't help it with Granny, because her idea of helping
is to make you angry and confrontational, so you'll deal with
the problem, but Nanny takes control in a "nice" way (unless
you're a daughter-in-law 8-(...).

Because later, when you realize that you have been manipulated, you
feel a bit like a fool?
But of course, that counts for Granny's kind of manipulation, too.

Anery

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 22 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Anery

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 16 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Anery
Yes, this is one point of view. But I think that she is
genuinly causing people feel better in her company (when
she wants to). She radiates a field of 'it will be all
right'ness in situations of distress.

Oh, absolutely. But if they stopped to think about it,
they'd realise they were feeling better on *her* terms.
But, then, as long as you *do* feel better, why think
about it? You can't help it with Granny, because her idea
of helping is to make you angry and confrontational, so
you'll deal with the problem, but Nanny takes control in a
"nice" way (unless you're a daughter-in-law 8-(...).

Because later, when you realize that you have been
manipulated, you feel a bit like a fool?

I suppose you can call it manipulation if you like, but since
I was *agreeing* with your last post, I'm not sure why you
would...

[Anery]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 22 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Anery

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 16 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Anery
Yes, this is one point of view. But I think that she is
genuinly causing people feel better in her company (when
she wants to). She radiates a field of 'it will be all
right'ness in situations of distress.

Oh, absolutely. But if they stopped to think about it,
they'd realise they were feeling better on *her* terms.
But, then, as long as you *do* feel better, why think
about it? You can't help it with Granny, because her idea
of helping is to make you angry and confrontational, so
you'll deal with the problem, but Nanny takes control in a
"nice" way (unless you're a daughter-in-law 8-(...).

Because later, when you realize that you have been
manipulated, you feel a bit like a fool?

I suppose you can call it manipulation if you like, but since
I was *agreeing* with your last post, I'm not sure why you
would...

Well, I wanted to say:

1. I agree with you agreeing with me :-)
2. I thought about your (probably just rhetorical) question "as long as
you *do* feel better, why think about it?" and suggested one possible
answer.
It is possible to feel better in the presence of somebody, and then
realize that she fooled you to telling her some information you didn't
intend to tell anybody (e.g. Mrs. Plinge in Maskerade).

Anery

[Anery]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 22 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Anery

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 16 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Anery
Yes, this is one point of view. But I think that she is
genuinly causing people feel better in her company (when
she wants to). She radiates a field of 'it will be all
right'ness in situations of distress.

Oh, absolutely. But if they stopped to think about it,
they'd realise they were feeling better on *her* terms.
But, then, as long as you *do* feel better, why think
about it? You can't help it with Granny, because her idea
of helping is to make you angry and confrontational, so
you'll deal with the problem, but Nanny takes control in a
"nice" way (unless you're a daughter-in-law 8-(...).

Because later, when you realize that you have been
manipulated, you feel a bit like a fool?

I suppose you can call it manipulation if you like, but since
I was *agreeing* with your last post, I'm not sure why you
would...

Well, I wanted to say:

1. I agree with you agreeing with me :-)
2. I thought about your (probably just rhetorical) question "as long as
you *do* feel better, why think about it?" and suggested one possible
answer.
It is possible to feel better in the presence of somebody, and then
realize that she fooled you to telling her some information you didn't
intend to tell anybody (e.g. Mrs. Plinge in Maskerade).

Anery

[Emma Anne]

Post by Anery
Still, if I had to choose company, I would probably prefer Nanny to
Granny. But I would carefully avoid even a look at her sons.

I think I would rather spend time with Granny. I kind of like irascible
old crones, as long as they aren't mad at me. And I don't think she
would be, because I prefer reality too.

[Anery]

Post by Emma Anne

Post by Anery
Still, if I had to choose company, I would probably prefer Nanny to
Granny. But I would carefully avoid even a look at her sons.

I think I would rather spend time with Granny. I kind of like irascible
old crones, as long as they aren't mad at me. And I don't think she
would be, because I prefer reality too.

I don't think Granny is much more sincere than Nanny. Look e.g. at the
way she cured the man from backache at the beginning of Maskerade. She
is just more unpleasant. I think that she could say a simple sentence
like 'Make the tee, Magrat' in a way that would quite wind me up.
Regardless, I think she is one of the most interesting characters in
the DW books. Especially when she has a worthy partner. Mightily Oats
in CJ was superb in that respect.

And while it is true that Nanny Ogg doesn't lie only when she can't
think of anything more interesting, her most unpleasant shown feature
IMO is just the very sincerely and openly showed contempt to her
daughters-in-law. YMMV.

Anery

[Richard Eney]

In article <***@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
Anery <***@atlas.cz> wrote:
<snip>
[Granny]

Post by Anery
Regardless, I think she is one of the most interesting characters in
the DW books. Especially when she has a worthy partner. Mightily Oats
in CJ was superb in that respect.

Agreed.

Post by Anery
And while it is true that Nanny Ogg doesn't lie only when she can't
think of anything more interesting, her most unpleasant shown feature
IMO is just the very sincerely and openly showed contempt to her
daughters-in-law. YMMV.

Nanny's contempt for her daughters-in-law is also contempt for the
choices made by her sons.

Her morals are that 'It's all right if an Ogg does it', which is why
at least one of her sons is a thief (stole the lead off the opera
house roof). She is more narrow-minded than Granny in some ways, too.
Granny made and sold herbal 'preventatives' that appear to have
competed well with Mr Sonky's products, and also stimulants. Nanny
was shocked and angry when she found out that her son had ...
misrepresented the nature of Mrs Palm's establishment, and more
upset that Granny _wasn't_ shocked and was in fact known to the
residents. Nanny knows the recipes, but whenever a small bottle
of herbal remedy is mentioned, it's one of Granny's (aside from
special sheep liniment).

=Tamar

[Anery]

Post by Richard Eney
<snip>

Post by Anery
And while it is true that Nanny Ogg doesn't lie only when she can't
think of anything more interesting, her most unpleasant shown feature
IMO is just the very sincerely and openly showed contempt to her
daughters-in-law. YMMV.

Nanny's contempt for her daughters-in-law is also contempt for the
choices made by her sons.

It never occured to me to think of it that way. I can't imagine that
any of her sons could choose a wife she wouldn't approve of.
It would be interesting to know if she influenced them to choose a
submissive wife or if the wives became submissive after their marriage
under the influence of Nanny.

Post by Richard Eney
Her morals are that 'It's all right if an Ogg does it', which is why
at least one of her sons is a thief (stole the lead off the opera
house roof).

This sentence seems to contradict your previous one. Surely if 'it's
all right if an Ogg does it', the choice of a wife is all right, too?

Post by Richard Eney
She is more narrow-minded than Granny in some ways, too.
Granny made and sold herbal 'preventatives' that appear to have
competed well with Mr Sonky's products, and also stimulants. Nanny
was shocked and angry when she found out that her son had ...
misrepresented the nature of Mrs Palm's establishment, and more
upset that Granny _wasn't_ shocked and was in fact known to the
residents. Nanny knows the recipes, but whenever a small bottle
of herbal remedy is mentioned, it's one of Granny's (aside from
special sheep liniment).

Anery

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 29 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Richard Eney
Her morals are that 'It's all right if an Ogg does it',
which is why at least one of her sons is a thief (stole the
lead off the opera house roof). She is more narrow-minded
than Granny in some ways, too. Granny made and sold herbal
'preventatives' that appear to have competed well with Mr
Sonky's products, and also stimulants. Nanny was shocked
and angry when she found out that her son had ...
misrepresented the nature of Mrs Palm's establishment, and
more upset that Granny _wasn't_ shocked and was in fact
known to the residents.

Surprised rather than shocked, and then annoyed that Granny
had wrongfoo wasn't following her half of the script. I'm
pretty sure that if Granny had done what was expected of her
(been uncomprehending at first, and then shocked and outraged)
Gytha would have been making single entendre jokes about the
situation for the rest of the trip.

Post by Richard Eney
Nanny knows the recipes, but
whenever a small bottle of herbal remedy is mentioned, it's
one of Granny's (aside from special sheep liniment).

I can think of three such bottles being mentioned. Two in ER
(one of which is Granny's and the other is Hilda
Goatfounder's) and one in Mort (also Granny's). Since they've
never been mentioned since Gytha was introduced, I'm not sure
you can conclude she doesn't make them. After all, most of her
cookery is supposed to have much the same effect.

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 29 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Surprised rather than shocked, and then annoyed that Granny
had wrongfoo wasn't following her half of the script.

somewhere in the middle of that sentence should be the fragment
"...ted her and..."

[Alec Cawley]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach

Post by Richard Eney
Nanny knows the recipes, but
whenever a small bottle of herbal remedy is mentioned, it's
one of Granny's (aside from special sheep liniment).

I can think of three such bottles being mentioned. Two in ER
(one of which is Granny's and the other is Hilda
Goatfounder's) and one in Mort (also Granny's). Since they've
never been mentioned since Gytha was introduced, I'm not sure
you can conclude she doesn't make them. After all, most of her
cookery is supposed to have much the same effect.

And we know that without Nanny's advice, every woman has only nine
months when she is not a Maiden, and Mother or a.. nother whereas with
Nanny's advice she could go for several years in the intermediate state.
(Maskerade, I think)>

[Esmeraldus]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 29 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Richard Eney
more upset that Granny _wasn't_ shocked and was in fact
known to the residents.

Surprised rather than shocked, and then annoyed that Granny
had wrongfoo wasn't following her half of the script. I'm
pretty sure that if Granny had done what was expected of her
(been uncomprehending at first, and then shocked and outraged)
Gytha would have been making single entendre jokes about the
situation for the rest of the trip.

That's how I read it.

[Richard Eney]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 29 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett.

belatedly...

[Nanny:]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach

Post by Richard Eney
Her morals are that 'It's all right if an Ogg does it',
which is why at least one of her sons is a thief (stole the
lead off the opera house roof). She is more narrow-minded
than Granny in some ways, too. Granny made and sold herbal
'preventatives' that appear to have competed well with Mr
Sonky's products, and also stimulants. Nanny was shocked
and angry when she found out that her son had ...
misrepresented the nature of Mrs Palm's establishment, and
more upset that Granny _wasn't_ shocked and was in fact
known to the residents.

Surprised rather than shocked, and then annoyed that Granny
had wrongfoo[ted her and]
wasn't following her half of the script. I'm
pretty sure that if Granny had done what was expected of her
(been uncomprehending at first, and then shocked and outraged)
Gytha would have been making single entendre jokes about the
situation for the rest of the trip.

Definitely. But as I read it, Nanny was mainly upset that
one of her sons had had the nerve to lie to her, and possibly
that he had not kept his choices restricted to Lancre women.

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach

Post by Richard Eney
Nanny knows the recipes, but
whenever a small bottle of herbal remedy is mentioned, it's
one of Granny's (aside from special sheep liniment).

I can think of three such bottles being mentioned. Two in
ER (one of which is Granny's and the other is Hilda
Goatfounder's) and one in Mort (also Granny's).

The way I read it, Granny also sold preventatives to Mrs Palm's
daughters, though I can see that they may have had a use for
the other products as well. She was doing a roaring business
in A-M during part of ER.

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Since they've never been mentioned since Gytha was introduced,
I'm not sure you can conclude she doesn't make them. After
all, most of her cookery is supposed to have much the same
effect.

Nanny's cookery is stimulating, but, not as far as I know,
preventative. We haven't been given the details of what her
advice to the young women is (not even in the Advice section
of the Cookbook), so we can't really say she doesn't offer
such useful products.

Sometimes I wonder what the parents really think of the old
busybody when she starts tattling about who their daughter
has been spending time with. Maybe some of them know darned
well and approve entirely. Ah well, best stop here to prevent
speculation.

=Tamar

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 15 Dec 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 29 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett.

belatedly...
[Nanny:]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach

Post by Richard Eney
Her morals are that 'It's all right if an Ogg does it',
which is why at least one of her sons is a thief (stole
the lead off the opera house roof). She is more
narrow-minded than Granny in some ways, too. Granny made
and sold herbal 'preventatives' that appear to have
competed well with Mr Sonky's products, and also
stimulants. Nanny was shocked and angry when she found
out that her son had ... misrepresented the nature of Mrs
Palm's establishment, and more upset that Granny _wasn't_
shocked and was in fact known to the residents.

Surprised rather than shocked, and then annoyed that Granny
had wrongfoo[ted her and]
wasn't following her half of the script. I'm
pretty sure that if Granny had done what was expected of
her (been uncomprehending at first, and then shocked and
outraged) Gytha would have been making single entendre
jokes about the situation for the rest of the trip.

Definitely. But as I read it, Nanny was mainly upset that
one of her sons had had the nerve to lie to her,

Oh, certainly.

Post by Richard Eney
and
possibly that he had not kept his choices restricted to
Lancre women.

Now *that* I don't see at all. I don't think Nanny is in any
doubt that when her kids go out to see the world (them that
do) they are going to have... experiences. Didn't one of her
daughters end up married to an A-M innkeeper? (Come to think
of it, is there any explanation in M! as to why they aren't
staying there, as suggested by Nanny in WS?)

[Aleks A.-Lessmann]

Shpoiler Shpace for Wintersmith (no big spoiler, but still...)
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Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 15 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 14 Nov 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

On one occasion. It doesn't change the fact that the entire
kingdom is, in fact, run on the principle of "Granny wouldn't
hold with that".

Yeah, but that is part of the whole "headology" stuff, of which Boffo is
also a part, BTW.

[Brion K. Lienhart]

Post by Sofia

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Agnes has definitely "graduated"; in fact she jumped straight
from "not a witch" to getting Magrat's cottage, so yes, she
probably should have been at the Going Away Party. OTOH, she
probably was, but, from Tiff's POV, was just part of the
general crowd of pointy hats.

MILD
SPOILER
I haven't a clue which novel Agnes Nitt got Magrat's cottage, as I'm still
reading Maskerade (nearly finished actually) but all through this book,
she seems to be giving me the impression that she *doesn't* actually want
to be a witch.

I started reading _Maskerade_ again, and I looked at the copyright date
of 1995. I hadn't realized that it was so long ago, I was thinking it
was 4 or 5 years ago. I guess because I've been waiting for the "next"
witch book with Granny & Nanny & Agnes. Wasn't it one of the first ones
to come out in both the UK & US at the same time?

[Sofia]

Post by Brion K. Lienhart
I started reading _Maskerade_ again, and I looked at the copyright date
of 1995. I hadn't realized that it was so long ago, I was thinking it
was 4 or 5 years ago. I guess because I've been waiting for the "next"
witch book with Granny & Nanny & Agnes. Wasn't it one of the first ones
to come out in both the UK & US at the same time?

I've read quite a few witches novels, but Maskerade is the first with
Agnes included I've seen though. I think someone mentioned once that she
also turns up in "Good Omens", though I can't comment on this as I haven't
reached it yet.


Sofie

[Carol Hague]

Post by Sofia
I've read quite a few witches novels, but Maskerade is the first with
Agnes included I've seen though. I think someone mentioned once that she
also turns up in "Good Omens", though I can't comment on this as I haven't
reached it yet.

There is an Agnes in _Good Omens_ , but it's a different Agnes - GO
isn't set on the Discworld at all.

[Richard Eney]

<snip>

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach

Post by Brion K. Lienhart
I don't have a copy of Lords & Ladies to hand, but wasn't
Ananagramma one of the young witches that were gadding
about? You'd think Agnes would have at least got a mention
as one of the coven members. Maybe she already "graduated"
and has her own steading, but then she should have shown up
at Miss Treason's party.

No, Annagramma wasn't part of the "kiddy coven" in L&L; the
Discworld timeline is dodgy at the best of times, but she was
probably about six during that book 8-). She does, however,
have the sort of name those witches have (Diamanda, Amanita,
and of course, Perdita).

<snip>

The name sounds vaguely like that style, but I think it is a
far better witch name, and may even have been given her at
birth.

MILD SPECULATION SPOILER

28

26

24

22

20

18

16

14

12

10

8

6

4

2

Anagramma could easily be reversed to Gramma Anna, which
fits well in the context of Granny and Nanny as witch titles.

It also sounds a little like one of the ever-popular "that sounds
pretty" names.

=Tamar

[Joe Bednorz]

Post by Richard Eney
<snip>

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach

Post by Brion K. Lienhart
I don't have a copy of Lords & Ladies to hand, but wasn't
Ananagramma one of the young witches that were gadding
about? You'd think Agnes would have at least got a mention
as one of the coven members. Maybe she already "graduated"
and has her own steading, but then she should have shown up
at Miss Treason's party.

No, Annagramma wasn't part of the "kiddy coven" in L&L; the
Discworld timeline is dodgy at the best of times, but she was
probably about six during that book 8-). She does, however,
have the sort of name those witches have (Diamanda, Amanita,
and of course, Perdita).

<snip>
The name sounds vaguely like that style, but I think it is a
far better witch name, and may even have been given her at
birth.
MILD SPECULATION SPOILER
28
26
24
22
20
18
16
14
12
10
8
6
4
2
Anagramma could easily be reversed to Gramma Anna, which
fits well in the context of Granny and Nanny as witch titles.
It also sounds a little like one of the ever-popular "that sounds
pretty" names.

And "anagram", a poke at those searching for hidden meanings in names.
;^D

NB: That doesn't invalidate your post at all.
--
"I think that's the other reason I love the Discworld stories. One time
the story is all "myffy" when suddenly you stumble across the joke and
your head hits the next available wall while at another bit you laugh at
a joke or situation and almost swallow your tongue when you think about
it for a second longer." - Volker Hetzer in abp

Links to Gigabytes of Free Online SF Books: <http://www.mindspring.com/~jbednorz/Free/>

All the Best, Joe Bednorz

[eir_de_scania]

Agnes is shown as a Lancre witch, and the current "owner" of the
cottage that used to ne Magrats - mice and all - in Carpe Jugulum.

Magrat makes a short come-back as a witch in that book, but mostly she
is busy Queening. But she does play a small (very small) part in
Wintersmith! ;-)

[Richard Cole]

Post by eir_de_scania
Agnes is shown as a Lancre witch, and the current "owner" of the
cottage that used to ne Magrats - mice and all - in Carpe Jugulum.
Magrat makes a short come-back as a witch in that book, but mostly she
is busy Queening. But she does play a small (very small) part in
Wintersmith! ;-)

Where?

Richard
Web pages: http://www.caravanningnow.co.uk/ for caravanning,
http://www.rcole.org/ for my personal web site and
http://www.homeindorset.co.uk because I love the email address.

[eir_de_scania]

In chapter 6, Feet and Sprouts,(page 202 in my Doubleday edition)
Tiffany and Nanny both are served breakfast in bed by a "skinny woman
with worried hair and a rather red nose". She is never introduced by
name, but it can't be anyone but HRH Queen Magrat herself, can it? :-)

Post by Richard Cole

Post by eir_de_scania
Agnes is shown as a Lancre witch, and the current "owner" of the
cottage that used to ne Magrats - mice and all - in Carpe Jugulum.
Magrat makes a short come-back as a witch in that book, but mostly she
is busy Queening. But she does play a small (very small) part in
Wintersmith! ;-)

Where?
Richard
Web pages: http://www.caravanningnow.co.uk/ for caravanning,
http://www.rcole.org/ for my personal web site and
http://www.homeindorset.co.uk because I love the email address.
--
ALCOHOLICS don't worry where the next drink is coming from. Go to the pub,
where a large selection is available at retail prices. - 'Viz' top tip

[Paul Cooke]

Post by eir_de_scania
In chapter 6, Feet and Sprouts,(page 202 in my Doubleday edition)
Tiffany and Nanny both are served breakfast in bed by a "skinny woman
with worried hair and a rather red nose". She is never introduced by
name, but it can't be anyone but HRH Queen Magrat herself, can it? :-)

that's one of Nanny Ogg's daughters-in-law...

[Andrew Nevill]

On 6 Nov 2006 09:31:14 -0800, "eir_de_scania" <***@yahoo.se> wrote:

[Magrat in Wintersmith?]

Post by eir_de_scania
In chapter 6, Feet and Sprouts,(page 202 in my Doubleday edition)
Tiffany and Nanny both are served breakfast in bed by a "skinny woman
with worried hair and a rather red nose". She is never introduced by
name, but it can't be anyone but HRH Queen Magrat herself, can it? :-)

Or it could be one of Nanny's numerous daughters-in-law. That was the way I
read it.

[Diane L]

eir_de_scania wrote:

[Top posting fixed - could you put your reply *under* the bit
you're replying to, please? It makes it easier for those of us who
aren't Mrs Cake to follow the conversation.]

Post by eir_de_scania

Post by Richard Cole

Post by eir_de_scania
Agnes is shown as a Lancre witch, and the current "owner" of the
cottage that used to ne Magrats - mice and all - in Carpe Jugulum.
Magrat makes a short come-back as a witch in that book, but mostly
she is busy Queening. But she does play a small (very small) part in
Wintersmith! ;-)

Where?

In chapter 6, Feet and Sprouts,(page 202 in my Doubleday edition)
Tiffany and Nanny both are served breakfast in bed by a "skinny woman
with worried hair and a rather red nose". She is never introduced by
name, but it can't be anyone but HRH Queen Magrat herself, can it? :-)

The description *does* sound rather like Magrat. I remember thinking so
while reading that bit, but as the character isn't seen again it's
impossible
to be sure.

Diane L.

[Raymond Daley]

Post by eir_de_scania
In chapter 6, Feet and Sprouts,(page 202 in my Doubleday edition)
Tiffany and Nanny both are served breakfast in bed by a "skinny woman
with worried hair and a rather red nose". She is never introduced by
name, but it can't be anyone but HRH Queen Magrat herself, can it? :-)

Actually, sorry to rain on your Magrat parade but no, it's not her.
She's a daughter-in-law. All Ogg daughter-in-laws are nameless, which you'd
know if you knew your Nanny Ogg background.
Children & Grandchildren are important enough to merit Nanny Ogg knowing
their names. Daughters-In-Law aren't.
Her daughter-in-laws are basically like The Family Vimes & their
interchangable Emmas.
Just nameless people who come round to help out.

[Mark Foweraker]

Post by Raymond Daley

Post by eir_de_scania
In chapter 6, Feet and Sprouts,(page 202 in my Doubleday edition)
Tiffany and Nanny both are served breakfast in bed by a "skinny woman
with worried hair and a rather red nose". She is never introduced by
name, but it can't be anyone but HRH Queen Magrat herself, can it? :-)

Actually, sorry to rain on your Magrat parade but no, it's not her.
She's a daughter-in-law. All Ogg daughter-in-laws are nameless, which you'd
know if you knew your Nanny Ogg background.
Children & Grandchildren are important enough to merit Nanny Ogg knowing
their names. Daughters-In-Law aren't.
Her daughter-in-laws are basically like The Family Vimes & their
interchangable Emmas.
Just nameless people who come round to help out.

But (having just finished WS, it could be 'Our Shirl,' who 'gets upset
if I'm not home when she comes round to cook my breakfast.'

[eir_de_scania]

Well, the description fits Magrat much better than any of the harrassed
young women who are unlucky enough to have married one of Nanny's sons.
So, unless you can show me where TP himself says it's a daughter-in-law
I'll stick to my Magrat theory.

Eir

Post by Raymond Daley

Post by eir_de_scania
In chapter 6, Feet and Sprouts,(page 202 in my Doubleday edition)
Tiffany and Nanny both are served breakfast in bed by a "skinny woman
with worried hair and a rather red nose". She is never introduced by
name, but it can't be anyone but HRH Queen Magrat herself, can it? :-)

Actually, sorry to rain on your Magrat parade but no, it's not her.
She's a daughter-in-law. All Ogg daughter-in-laws are nameless, which you'd
know if you knew your Nanny Ogg background.
Children & Grandchildren are important enough to merit Nanny Ogg knowing
their names. Daughters-In-Law aren't.
Her daughter-in-laws are basically like The Family Vimes & their
interchangable Emmas.
Just nameless people who come round to help out.

[Mark Foweraker]

Post by eir_de_scania
Well, the description fits Magrat much better than any of the harrassed
young women who are unlucky enough to have married one of Nanny's sons.
So, unless you can show me where TP himself says it's a daughter-in-law
I'll stick to my Magrat theory.
Eir

Post by Raymond Daley

Post by eir_de_scania
In chapter 6, Feet and Sprouts,(page 202 in my Doubleday edition)
Tiffany and Nanny both are served breakfast in bed by a "skinny woman
with worried hair and a rather red nose". She is never introduced by
name, but it can't be anyone but HRH Queen Magrat herself, can it? :-)

Actually, sorry to rain on your Magrat parade but no, it's not her.
She's a daughter-in-law. All Ogg daughter-in-laws are nameless, which you'd
know if you knew your Nanny Ogg background.
Children & Grandchildren are important enough to merit Nanny Ogg knowing
their names. Daughters-In-Law aren't.
Her daughter-in-laws are basically like The Family Vimes & their
interchangable Emmas.
Just nameless people who come round to help out.

See also my post above, but the likely hood of Magrat, queen of Lancre
going out to cook anyone's breakfast is nonsensically small.
Furthermore, consider, one Queen of Lancre as breakfast provider against
a large cast of daughters and daughter's in law who are known to be at
constant service to their dear old Nanny. Magrat, not a chance, our
Shirl, 10 to 1 on! (WS p331 pp9 Corgi Books i.e. 10 paragraphs from the
end)

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by Brion K. Lienhart
While I was reading Wintersmith, it finally dawned on me that Tiffany is
taking over the spot that Agnes Nitt should have had in the next couple
of Witch books. Young girl that's pretty good, but still needs a little
polishing around the edges.

"Two suns hold not their courses in one sphere." I imagine Tiffany and
Granny would tear up the turf if they were forced into any kind of
prolonged proximity.
However, I could possibly see Granny polishing Tiffany up as her
'heir'...