Discussion:
-[R]- A rebuttal to Rand-ian philosophy in Going Postal?
(too old to reply)
ansh
2007-09-02 06:07:30 UTC
Permalink
Coming out of a long hibernator-y lurking period to post this.

I belong to the discworld community on livejournal and one of the
members (http://pathwriter.livejournal.com/) came up with a very
intellectually interesting post.

x-x-x-x

Post copied in full:

Pratchett &... Rand?!
I spent the past couple months reading off and on (I've been generally
only reading before bedtime) Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged and The
Fountainhead. Since I'd felt like doing some research on the works
themselves, I decided to do some poking around online. Among other
things, I wandered across the wikipedia article for Atlas Shrugged and
it stated that Terry Pratchett's Going Postal is a response to and
satire of Rand's novel.

My next step was obvious, then. I picked up my copy of Going Postal
and read through it like a good literature major trying to spot the
allusions, similarities, and differences. And that's where I hit a
brick wall because... I don't know, I think I missed it.

I think part of my problem was that whomever wrote the wikipedia
article claims that Reacher Gilt is the Discworld's John Galt. The
only attribute I can find to support that assertion, though, is that
their surnames are very similar. Beyond that, though, for all that I
saw a host of sideways allusions to Rand's work, particularly in Adora
Belle Dearheart (she's the typical Rand heroine), I really couldn't
quite catch the gist of the rebuttal. It took a main character who was
utterly unscrupulous and he managed to make a profit from it by
tricking people but, in the end, it was alright because it worked out
to everyone's benefit. That doesn't exactly sound like a rebuttal to
Objectivism.

I did see, however, support of Rand's ideas in the particulars of the
Grand Trunk Company and how its Board of Directors operated. It was
pretty much perfectly in tune with the likes of Associated Steel and
James Taggart. In fact, if anything, Reacher Gilt put me more in mind
of Orren Boyle than John Galt.

Well, anyhow, my point is, to those familiar with these novels, am I
just missing something critical or am I just reading too much into
someone's opinion posted on wikipedia?

x-x-x-x

My thoughts (and a request for permission to re-post) are:

Like a number of the above posters I haven't read any Rand. I got
gifted Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead for a birthday but I hated
the characters and underlying philosophy (whatever I got of it) so
much, that I gave up after about 5 pages.

As far as I know, the central idea behind objectivism is that you try
to maximise "personal happiness" or personal utility. As opposed to
this, in Going Postal, instead of working to maximise his personal
happiness Von Lipwig tries to work for the "greater good" and succeeds
pretty well. I wouldn't argue that the fact that he did this by
thinking on his own (which is, IMO, not a characteristic unique to
objectivists) all that central to what he got done. I think in this
case it was the end result versus methodology that was the difference
between AS and GP. I haven't read AS so I can't comment on plot
similarities but I would compare the over-arching themes in the books
on a purely philosophical basis.

By the way, this is a great post. Have you thought of posting it on
alt.books.pratchett? There's a lot more (very erudite) people on the
newsgroup who might be able to shed light on the topic and usually
when its this interesting pTerry posts too. If you don't want to,
would you mind if I took the liberty? I am really interested in seeing
what other people come up with as well.

x-x-x-x

You can see the post along with all the comments various people made
here: http://community.livejournal.com/discworld/752163.html

I thought it would be a good idea to post this topic here and see what
people on abp make of it. What do you think?

[BTW, sorry if this is too long].
feanor1999
2007-09-02 08:44:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by ansh
Coming out of a long hibernator-y lurking period to post this.
I belong to the discworld community on livejournal and one of the
members (http://pathwriter.livejournal.com/) came up with a very
intellectually interesting post.
x-x-x-x
Pratchett &... Rand?!
I spent the past couple months reading off and on (I've been generally
only reading before bedtime) Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged and The
Fountainhead. Since I'd felt like doing some research on the works
themselves, I decided to do some poking around online. Among other
things, I wandered across the wikipedia article for Atlas Shrugged and
it stated that Terry Pratchett's Going Postal is a response to and
satire of Rand's novel.
My next step was obvious, then. I picked up my copy of Going Postal
and read through it like a good literature major trying to spot the
allusions, similarities, and differences. And that's where I hit a
brick wall because... I don't know, I think I missed it.
I think part of my problem was that whomever wrote the wikipedia
article claims that Reacher Gilt is the Discworld's John Galt. The
only attribute I can find to support that assertion, though, is that
their surnames are very similar. Beyond that, though, for all that I
saw a host of sideways allusions to Rand's work, particularly in Adora
Belle Dearheart (she's the typical Rand heroine), I really couldn't
quite catch the gist of the rebuttal. It took a main character who was
utterly unscrupulous and he managed to make a profit from it by
tricking people but, in the end, it was alright because it worked out
to everyone's benefit. That doesn't exactly sound like a rebuttal to
Objectivism.
I did see, however, support of Rand's ideas in the particulars of the
Grand Trunk Company and how its Board of Directors operated. It was
pretty much perfectly in tune with the likes of Associated Steel and
James Taggart. In fact, if anything, Reacher Gilt put me more in mind
of Orren Boyle than John Galt.
Well, anyhow, my point is, to those familiar with these novels, am I
just missing something critical or am I just reading too much into
someone's opinion posted on wikipedia?
x-x-x-x
Like a number of the above posters I haven't read any Rand. I got
gifted Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead for a birthday but I hated
the characters and underlying philosophy (whatever I got of it) so
much, that I gave up after about 5 pages.
As far as I know, the central idea behind objectivism is that you try
to maximise "personal happiness" or personal utility. As opposed to
this, in Going Postal, instead of working to maximise his personal
happiness Von Lipwig tries to work for the "greater good" and succeeds
pretty well. I wouldn't argue that the fact that he did this by
thinking on his own (which is, IMO, not a characteristic unique to
objectivists) all that central to what he got done. I think in this
case it was the end result versus methodology that was the difference
between AS and GP. I haven't read AS so I can't comment on plot
similarities but I would compare the over-arching themes in the books
on a purely philosophical basis.
By the way, this is a great post. Have you thought of posting it on
alt.books.pratchett? There's a lot more (very erudite) people on the
newsgroup who might be able to shed light on the topic and usually
when its this interesting pTerry posts too. If you don't want to,
would you mind if I took the liberty? I am really interested in seeing
what other people come up with as well.
x-x-x-x
You can see the post along with all the comments various people made
here:http://community.livejournal.com/discworld/752163.html
I thought it would be a good idea to post this topic here and see what
people on abp make of it. What do you think?
[BTW, sorry if this is too long].
Ayup Ansh...

I usually thought that people in Ankh-Morpork 'did things' because the
thought of dangling over the Patricians scorpion pit by their toes
was a lot more unattractive option. Reacher Gilt didn't take up HIS
option, and went his... way. That's how we get to 'Making Money' isn't
it? (at least from the Amazon book description, it is.)
Mynnia
2007-09-13 06:58:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by ansh
Coming out of a long hibernator-y lurking period to post this.
I belong to the discworld community on livejournal and one of the
members (http://pathwriter.livejournal.com/) came up with a very
intellectually interesting post.
O hay thar, fellow LJer
esmi
2007-09-02 20:34:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by ansh
I belong to the discworld community on livejournal and one of the
members (http://pathwriter.livejournal.com/) came up with a very
intellectually interesting post.
<snip>
Post by ansh
Among other
things, I wandered across the wikipedia article for Atlas Shrugged and
it stated that Terry Pratchett's Going Postal is a response to and
satire of Rand's novel.
<snip>

I couldn't find any reference to Pratchett or Going Postal in:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged

Perhaps that statement has been removed?
Post by ansh
My next step was obvious, then. I picked up my copy of Going Postal
and read through it like a good literature major trying to spot the
allusions, similarities, and differences. And that's where I hit a
brick wall because... I don't know, I think I missed it.
<snip>

I have to first of all say that I've never read "Atlas Shrugged" or any
of the works of Ayn Rand but I did go out and find a couple of
summarisations of the novel's central plot in case there was a real
connection here but, like yourself, I don't see it.

I imagine that whoever suggested that Going Postal was a response to, or
satire on, this one novel simply wanted it to be so. That doesn't mean
it is. The "con man who ends up being the hero" isn't exactly an new
story and is really just an extension of the idea that it is possible to
help others by helping yourself. I'm sure Hollywood has done it a
hundred times and I'm pretty certain that the central theme in "Atlas
Shrugged" has been covered in a number of SF stories/novels.

I suspect that if you selected two completely random novels and then
looked very, *very* hard, you'd find connections betweeen them. For
example, I could argue that Going Postal is a satire of Richard Dawkin's
"The Selfish Gene" [1] :-)

esmi

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene
--
2008 Discworld Convention
22nd to 25th August 2008
Hilton Metropole Hotel, Birmingham, UK
http://www.dwcon.org/
Daibhid Ceanaideach
2007-09-03 11:05:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by esmi
Post by ansh
I belong to the discworld community on livejournal and one
of the members (http://pathwriter.livejournal.com/) came
up with a very intellectually interesting post.
<snip>
Post by ansh
Among other
things, I wandered across the wikipedia article for Atlas
Shrugged and it stated that Terry Pratchett's Going Postal
is a response to and satire of Rand's novel.
<snip>
I couldn't find any reference to Pratchett or Going Postal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged
Perhaps that statement has been removed?
It was definitely removed from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clacks#Reacher_Gilt

as speculative, because I was there at the time.
--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://sesoc.eusa.ed.ac.uk/
"There *is* no Niels, the Bouncing Cat! He's gone!
Now, there is only ... P-Cat, the Penitent Puss!"
Sofia
2007-09-06 22:46:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by esmi
I suspect that if you selected two completely random novels and then
looked very, very hard, you'd find connections betweeen them. For
example, I could argue that Going Postal is a satire of Richard
Dawkin's "The Selfish Gene" [1] :-)
...or perhaps Barbara Cartland's flimsy romance novels could represent a
modern version of Romeo and Juliet?? :-)

Sofie
--
Please visit my deviantART page: http://sofen.deviantart.com/
N***@gmail.com
2007-09-02 21:46:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by ansh
As far as I know, the central idea behind objectivism is that you try
to maximise "personal happiness" or personal utility. As opposed to
this, in Going Postal, instead of working to maximise his personal
happiness Von Lipwig tries to work for the "greater good" and succeeds
pretty well.
And in doing so attains a lot of personal happiness.

And he's working for the government. As a bureaucrat he helps hundreds
of people, saves a struggling (and vitally important) industry from
it's rapacious owners, makes no money for himself, and maximizes his
personal satisfaction.
Post by ansh
I haven't read AS so I can't comment on plot
similarities but I would compare the over-arching themes in the books
on a purely philosophical basis.
I'm in a similar boat. I've dealt with Randists on political forums,
but never actually read her books because I was distinctly unimpressed
with their arguments. Sometimes they claim the US income tax in un-
Constitutional, despite the fact there's an Amendment (the 16th)
specifically legalizing the damn thing. Dude, if you're going to wrap
yourself in the Constitution at least read the damn thing. It ain't
that long.

Reacher Gilt's public persona certainly felt a lot like those guys,
making all kinds of wonderful-sounding arguments regarding freedom,
which don't actually make much sense in the Real World. Gilt is
clearly the villain, and one of the few DW villains who is actually
evil. Add in that the hero works for a government agency that
collapsed due being starved of funds, the fact that the actual
entrepreneurs in the book (the Dearings) lose their business to
entrenched interests, etc. and you've got a pretty damning indictment
of Randism s preached by Randists. There's some anti-Randism in the
Night Watch books. In "Feet of Clay" Carrot really hammers home the
point that people who demand service from the Watch take a distinctly
Randist view of paying taxes.

The Watch books take a complicated line on gun-control, another issue
dear to the hearts of the Randists I've encountered. In Night Watch
Vimes mentions the Disk-equivalent was stupid because criminals did
not turn in their weapons, IIRC in another book he comments that an
armed society is NOT a polite society for very long.

Terry doesn't like people who think they've got it all figured out.
Randists are VERY certain of themselves, so they're an obvious target.
But he also nails ineffective leftist activists (Reg Shoe), organized
religion (Small Gods), government attempts at regulation (the Thieve's
Guild), etc.

Nick
feanor1999
2007-09-03 21:10:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by N***@gmail.com
Post by ansh
As far as I know, the central idea behind objectivism is that you try
to maximise "personal happiness" or personal utility. As opposed to
this, in Going Postal, instead of working to maximise his personal
happiness Von Lipwig tries to work for the "greater good" and succeeds
pretty well.
And in doing so attains a lot of personal happiness.
And he's working for the government. As a bureaucrat he helps hundreds
of people, saves a struggling (and vitally important) industry from
it's rapacious owners, makes no money for himself, and maximizes his
personal satisfaction.
Post by ansh
I haven't read AS so I can't comment on plot
similarities but I would compare the over-arching themes in the books
on a purely philosophical basis.
I'm in a similar boat. I've dealt with Randists on political forums,
but never actually read her books because I was distinctly unimpressed
with their arguments. Sometimes they claim the US income tax in un-
Constitutional, despite the fact there's an Amendment (the 16th)
specifically legalizing the damn thing. Dude, if you're going to wrap
yourself in the Constitution at least read the damn thing. It ain't
that long.
Reacher Gilt's public persona certainly felt a lot like those guys,
making all kinds of wonderful-sounding arguments regarding freedom,
which don't actually make much sense in the Real World. Gilt is
clearly the villain, and one of the few DW villains who is actually
evil. Add in that the hero works for a government agency that
collapsed due being starved of funds, the fact that the actual
entrepreneurs in the book (the Dearings) lose their business to
entrenched interests, etc. and you've got a pretty damning indictment
of Randism s preached by Randists. There's some anti-Randism in the
Night Watch books. In "Feet of Clay" Carrot really hammers home the
point that people who demand service from the Watch take a distinctly
Randist view of paying taxes.
The Watch books take a complicated line on gun-control, another issue
dear to the hearts of the Randists I've encountered. In Night Watch
Vimes mentions the Disk-equivalent was stupid because criminals did
not turn in their weapons, IIRC in another book he comments that an
armed society is NOT a polite society for very long.
Terry doesn't like people who think they've got it all figured out.
Randists are VERY certain of themselves, so they're an obvious target.
But he also nails ineffective leftist activists (Reg Shoe), organized
religion (Small Gods), government attempts at regulation (the Thieve's
Guild), etc.
Ayup Nicholas...

Terry doesn't like people who think they've got it all figured out.

How do you work that one out?

what about the patrician? he HAS got it all figured out.He leaves
NOTHING to chance. what he dooes is make OTHER PEOPLE think that
'IT' (whatever idea he needs promulgating), was THEIR idea.That's his
master skill, he makes that point to Vimes over and over again... all
you need to do is push gently...

But he also nails ineffective leftist activists

But doesn't Reg help bring the undead together to a common purpose?
minorities and all that working TOGETHER for the common good? a good
thing shurely?

And doesn't he strengthen the omnians through Brutha enough to allow
them to send missionaries to Ankh? and even join the watch?

Government regulation? see the patrician above. It's because of the
certainty of the scorpion pit that the guilds DON'T annoy him.( He
makes trouble so very PERSONAL to the offender.) they see that they
can make money without upsetting him, which is what you DON'T wanna
do...
David Sewell
2007-09-02 23:28:01 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 06:07:30 +0000, ansh wrote:

[long discussion of possible influence of "Atlas Shrugged" on
"Going Postal"]

My strong suspicion is that Terry is taking aim at Randian philosophy
only to the extent that it is one of the sources of contemporary
extreme free-market thinking. Reacher Gilt is a composite of
literary characters and real-world capitalists like Rupert
Murdoch and the directors of Enron. John Galt may be there in
the background, but I don't see him as a direct source. (And
if Terry ever read "Atlas Shrugged", it was no doubt years
ago when he was young and foolish. Novelists put themselves
through a lot for their craft, but I'd be sorry to think
he subjected himself to 900 pages of Ayn Rand while working
on GP.)
--
David Sewell "They that are awake have one world in common,
White Hall, Virginia but of the sleeping each turns aside into
USA a world of his own." --Heraclitus
Sofia
2007-09-06 23:48:36 UTC
Permalink
David Sewell wrote:

Reacher Gilt is a composite of
Post by David Sewell
literary characters and real-world capitalists like Rupert
Murdoch and the directors of Enron. John Galt may be there in
the background, but I don't see him as a direct source. (And
if Terry ever read "Atlas Shrugged", it was no doubt years
ago when he was young and foolish. Novelists put themselves
through a lot for their craft, but I'd be sorry to think
he subjected himself to 900 pages of Ayn Rand while working
on GP.)
Yeah, from what I seem to have to have read of Ms Rand on my google, it
seems you've got it pretty much right! As a Bolshevik revolutionist,
she seems to know how to impress her readers with her fictional
political and heroic figures in her novels around the era and settings
she lived in! I think her political views changed a little libertarian
later on though, I'm not actually sure how far bent she went though.


Anyway here's the U.R.L, of the short biography I found, HTH!

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_ayn_rand_aynrand_biography
--
Please visit my deviantART page: http://sofen.deviantart.com/
Daibhid Ceanaideach
2007-09-07 13:27:57 UTC
Permalink
'Twas on the 07 Sep 2007, that Sofia
Post by Sofia
Yeah, from what I seem to have to have read of Ms Rand on
my google, it seems you've got it pretty much right! As a
Bolshevik revolutionist, she seems to know how to impress
her readers with her fictional political and heroic figures
in her novels around the era and settings she lived in! I
think her political views changed a little libertarian
later on though, I'm not actually sure how far bent she
went though.
Eh? Rand is possibly the most far-right libertarian *ever*,
and the URL you link to specifically mentions her *denouncing*
the Bolsheviks.
--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://sesoc.eusa.ed.ac.uk/
"There *is* no Niels, the Bouncing Cat! He's gone!
Now, there is only ... P-Cat, the Penitent Puss!"
Sofia
2007-09-07 20:10:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Eh? Rand is possibly the most far-right libertarian *ever*,
and the URL you link to specifically mentions her denouncing
the Bolsheviks.
Yes, I think she turned into a Capitalist from a Bolshevik! Not quite
sure how exactly how that can happen to somebody though - I'm a little
confused about that one??

Sofie
--
Please visit my deviantART page: http://sofen.deviantart.com/
Daibhid Ceanaideach
2007-09-07 21:10:56 UTC
Permalink
'Twas on the 07 Sep 2007, that Sofia
Post by Sofia
Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Eh? Rand is possibly the most far-right libertarian
*ever*, and the URL you link to specifically mentions her
denouncing the Bolsheviks.
Yes, I think she turned into a Capitalist from a Bolshevik!
Not quite sure how exactly how that can happen to somebody
though - I'm a little confused about that one??
It might have something to do with never having been a
Bolshevik?

Denounce. noun. To condemn openly as being evil or
reprehensible.

So when the bio says she denounced the Bolshevik revolution
from the start, that means she was against it.
--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://sesoc.eusa.ed.ac.uk/
"There *is* no Niels, the Bouncing Cat! He's gone!
Now, there is only ... P-Cat, the Penitent Puss!"
Mickalos
2007-10-07 13:47:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by ansh
I think part of my problem was that whomever wrote the wikipedia
article claims that Reacher Gilt is the Discworld's John Galt. The
only attribute I can find to support that assertion, though, is that
their surnames are very similar. Beyond that, though, for all that I
saw a host of sideways allusions to Rand's work, particularly in Adora
Belle Dearheart (she's the typical Rand heroine), I really couldn't
quite catch the gist of the rebuttal. It took a main character who was
utterly unscrupulous and he managed to make a profit from it by
tricking people but, in the end, it was alright because it worked out
to everyone's benefit. That doesn't exactly sound like a rebuttal to
Objectivism.
I did see, however, support of Rand's ideas in the particulars of the
Grand Trunk Company and how its Board of Directors operated. It was
pretty much perfectly in tune with the likes of Associated Steel and
James Taggart. In fact, if anything, Reacher Gilt put me more in mind
of Orren Boyle than John Galt.
I would agree with this. It's only people who have never read Atlas
Shrugged who claim Going Postal is some sort of rebuttal, they don't
realise that the villians in Atlas Shrugged are also wealthy
industrialists who use unscrupulous means to enrich themselves. Of
course, that's not to say Pratchett is an objectivist, but I've always
noticed lots of libertarian themes (not all libertarians are randroids)
running through discworld.
William Black
2007-10-07 14:25:06 UTC
Permalink
. Of course, that's not to say Pratchett is an objectivist, but I've always
noticed lots of libertarian themes (not all libertarians are randroids)
running through discworld.
I would doubt very much that Mr Pratchett is an Objectivist.

It's a cult little know in the UK.

Those who do know something about it tend to loath it.

Mr Pratchett's politics seem to be somewhere near the centre of the Labour
Party, slightly to the left of the current government...
--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
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