[A] Wintersmith (First Thoughts...)

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

Okay, it seems to have become Traditional that I kick off the
Tiffany Aching annotation threads. So here we go.

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First things first: It's the wrong size! Tiffany books
shouldn't be fullsize hardbacks, they should be compact, and
have Kidby sillouettes of Feegles chasing each other through
the page numbers. Did the references to sex worry someone at
the publishers out of it being a children's book?

Back cover:
A Vetruvian Snowman, presumably symbolising the Wintersmith's
"Making of a Man".

p28
"Witches said things like 'You can never be too old, too
skinny or too warty'"
"You can never be too thin or too rich" -Wallis Simpson, I
think.

p39
"There was a story in the villages that the clock was Miss
Treason's heart"
There are lots of stories of witches putting their life
essence somwehere else by magic (is it part of Baba Yaga's
myth?), but I was also reminded of the film version of top
boffo-merchant the Wizard of Oz, who gave the Tin Woodsman a
clock for a heart.

p41
"The loom worried them."
And well it might; Miss Treason is basically increasing her
reputation as Justice by becoming the local incarnation of
Fate.

p42
"The candle holders were two skulls. One had ENOCHI carved on
it, the other had the word ATHOOTITA. The words meant GUILT
and INNOCENCE."
A Google has failed to turn up anything interesting, or indeed
comprehensible, except that Enochi is a kind of mushroom.
Anyone else?

p49
"'This is a Morris dance.'"
The Dark Morris was first mentioned in Reaper Man.

p53
"Witch-hunting for Dumb People"
Parodies the "For Dummies" books.

p72
"Chaffinch's Ancient and Classical Mythology"
The RW version is "The Age of Fable" by Thomas Bulfinch,
better known as "Bulfinch's Mythology".

"The Dacne of the Sneasos"
While this doesn't appear to be based on an actual painting,
it's pretty much what the personifications of Summer and
Winter traditionally look like.

p86
"'And did you hear that I walk around at night at the dark
time of the year and...'"
Obviously this is another Hogswatch gift-giving/punishment
legend. I'm sure the bit about the thumbnail comes from a
genuine witch-legend, as well.

p87
"'And the one about me having a cow's tail?'"
There's apparently a kind of Norwegian witch-fairy called a
huldra, who has a cow's tail.

p114
"General Callus Tacticus"
Pedantry: In "Jingo", "Veni, Vidi Vici" is by Gen. A Tacticus.
Possibly his full first name was Aricallus, or something...

p121
"or every time the Grim Reaper came for her she lied about her
name or sent him to another person."
I *think* this is how some trickster gods got their
immortality.

p123
"Inside-out cake"
Presumably not *quite* the same thing as upside-down cake.

p124
"'Everyone around there is literally frightened out of their
lives!'"
Apparently Annagramma never did get round to learning what
"literally" actually means (HfoS).

p125
"Unlucky Charlie"
A scarecrow, as seen in TSaLF. According to NOC, being a
target at the Witch Trials for years has left him a bit
magical, and he tends to move around when no-one's looking.

p170
"MISS EUMENIDES TREASON"
The Eumenides are the proper name for the Furies. A good name
for Miss Treason, the terrifying figure of Justice.

p218
"'The Summer Lady doesn't walk above the ground in winter'"
Sort of Persephone, although technically it's Persephone's mum
who's the Summer Lady, and she just goes on strike until her
daughter comes back.

p233
"PASSION'S PLAYTHING by Marjory J. Boddice"
When I was doing my six weeks at the central library, I had to
sort out all the Mills & Boons, and I'll swear half the
authors were called Marjory, and two thirds of them used a
middle initial. And "Boddice" as in "bodice-ripper".

p239
"'iron enough to make a nail'"
Google suggests that this originates with Professor C.E.M.
Joad, but my Google-fu doesn't extend to where he said it. The
last three lines, mentioned by Tiffany later, don't seem to be
there.

p240
"'Is there any chance you could take us flying?'"
The snowman in The Snowman, by Raymond Briggs takes the boy
who built him flying to the North Pole to meet Father
Christmas. In the animated version, this became the best known
scene, due to the musical number "Walking in the Air". Which
*wasn't* performed by Aled Jones, although he released the
single.

p261
"'They want me to do stuck zips'"
I hate to seem picky about this, but when exactly did the
Discworld get zips?

p263
"'I used to be a volcano goddess ... And the god of storms was
always raining on my lava."
Based on a similar line in Going Postal, she may have been
going by the name Lela at this time.

p289
Greek lettering
Again, I've decided translation is someone else's job.

p306
"'You have to start small, with oak trees'"
When Tiffany is considering how to changing the Chalk attitude
to witchcraft at the end of WFM, she thinks "you have to start
small, like acorns".

p340
"'Orpheo rescuing Euniphon from the Underworld'"
Orpheus and Euridyce.

Spelling Orpheus "Orpheo" has a bit of tradition behind it;
there's a 14th century ballad called Sir Orfeo, in which the
titular knight must rescue Heurodis from the fairies. But Tiff
and Roland have already done that one.

p343
"Once you got respect, you'd got everything"
Granny's philosophy, from the other side.

p349
"She reached down and pulled out, covered in slime and scales,
but recognisably itself, the silver horse."
Famous myth, associated with (amongst others) St Mungo of
Glasgow. Nanny Ogg refers to it in Wyrd Sisters.

"he was bringing the winter into her heart. She could feel it
growing colder."
This sort of reminded me of Kay, in The Snow Queen, who gets a
shard of the Queen's mirror in his heart.

p361
"'Like mebbe dead when they shouldn't be an' there's nae place
for 'em tae go ... This one used tae be called Limbo, ye ken,
cuz the door was verrae low.'"
In Catholic theology (or possibly just in Catholic popular
myth), people who were basically good, but didn't have the
chance to become Christians end up in Limbo. The name has
nothing to do with limbo-dancing.

p365
"'Like a bird on the boa-'"
Somehow, the unround round of Row, Row Your Boat has picked up
a garbled line from the Skye Boat Song.

p368
"'One verrae big dog wi' three heads.'"
Cerebus

p369
"Just before it hit the water a white arm reached out and
caught it."
The Lady of the Lake, when Bedivere threw Excalibur back when
Arthur was dying.

p375
"'Ach, we warsnae doon here more'n two hour an' bang went
saxpence!'"
See the annotation for p168 of the Wee Free Men.

p384
"She was beginning to remind Tiffany a lot of Annagramma."
When it looked like Tiffany was going to get a cottage she
didn't really want, Anagramma suspected her trying to take it
from her, because that's what *she'd* have done. The Summer
Lady's reaction to Tiffany "stealing" her role is indeed
pretty much the same.

p388
"A doll, maybe, made out of lots of twigs bound together"
I've not seen the Blair Witch Project, but I know these were
in it.

[T.M. Sommers]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
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p340
"'Orpheo rescuing Euniphon from the Underworld'"
Orpheus and Euridyce.
Spelling Orpheus "Orpheo" has a bit of tradition behind it;

It's just the Italian version of the name (modulo the 'ph' == 'f'
thing). See, for instance, Monteverdi's "Orfeo", 1607.

[Torak]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Okay, it seems to have become Traditional that I kick off the
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First things first: It's the wrong size! Tiffany books
shouldn't be fullsize hardbacks, they should be compact, and
have Kidby sillouettes of Feegles chasing each other through
the page numbers. Did the references to sex worry someone at
the publishers out of it being a children's book?
p42
"The candle holders were two skulls. One had ENOCHI carved on
it, the other had the word ATHOOTITA. The words meant GUILT
and INNOCENCE."
A Google has failed to turn up anything interesting, or indeed
comprehensible, except that Enochi is a kind of mushroom.
Anyone else?

Good question. Could have something to do with Enoch, the language
Enochian, or something?

"Athootita" sounds like it could be some sort of Manuel-with-a-headcold
saying "Justitia". Just a very long shot guess sort of thing.

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
p87
"'And the one about me having a cow's tail?'"
There's apparently a kind of Norwegian witch-fairy called a
huldra, who has a cow's tail.

Not just Norwegian. We've got *lots* of nasty beasties running around
the woods in Scandinavia - women with hollow backs, fox tails and a
dislike for clothing; naked blokes fiddling away in the middle of
rivers; lunatics without clothes diving screaming out of buildings into
frozen lakes in the middle of winter... oh no, those are real. Never
mind. Either way, there seems to be a pattern developing.

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
p114
"General Callus Tacticus"
Pedantry: In "Jingo", "Veni, Vidi Vici" is by Gen. A Tacticus.
Possibly his full first name was Aricallus, or something...

Or maybe he had a brother.

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
p123
"Inside-out cake"
Presumably not *quite* the same thing as upside-down cake.

Could be a nuisance with those cakes with a jam filling.

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
p170
"MISS EUMENIDES TREASON"
The Eumenides are the proper name for the Furies. A good name
for Miss Treason, the terrifying figure of Justice.

I still wouldn't trust her, with a name like that. I'd keep looking over
my shoulder.

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
p261
"'They want me to do stuck zips'"
I hate to seem picky about this, but when exactly did the
Discworld get zips?

"Zip" is actually ancient Greek for "really fat horses who get stuck in
stable doors". Not a lot of people know that.

Honest. No, really. :-p

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
p388
"A doll, maybe, made out of lots of twigs bound together"
I've not seen the Blair Witch Project, but I know these were
in it.

I haven't seen it either. Is it any good?

[Arthur Hagen]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Okay, it seems to have become Traditional that I kick off the
Tiffany Aching annotation threads. So here we go.
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p42
"The candle holders were two skulls. One had ENOCHI carved on
it, the other had the word ATHOOTITA. The words meant GUILT
and INNOCENCE."
A Google has failed to turn up anything interesting, or indeed
comprehensible, except that Enochi is a kind of mushroom.
Anyone else?

Try searching for "Enoch". As for ATHOOTITA, well, ATH0 means disconnect,
and -otita is a Greek ending used in words like timiotita (honesty). That
said, I found a book named Antio Athootita by Ron Handberg, so apparently
it's a word in itself.

Regards,

[Terry Pratchett]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Okay, it seems to have become Traditional that I kick off the
Tiffany Aching annotation threads. So here we go.
SPOILER SPACE
I
".
p239
"'iron enough to make a nail'"
Google suggests that this originates with Professor C.E.M.
Joad, but my Google-fu doesn't extend to where he said it. The
last three lines, mentioned by Tiffany later, don't seem to be
there.

Believe me or not, but I've never heard that version. When I was a kid--
and still now -- you get / got these 'The human body contains enough
iron to make a nail' articles[1], so I dug up a list of 'ingredients'
and assembled the song from scratch, finding suitable uses that would
work in Tiffany's world. On the farm, sulphur would be a pest control
and fumigant, for example.

There is in fact not a huge overlap with the only Joad version I can
find on-line, and I doubt if he would have countenanced the last three
lines:-)

[1] An Edwardian version says: "It would take the iron in the blood of
thousand men to make a ploughshare."

ps: Discworld could easily have zips!

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 26 Sep 2006. The place: alt.fan.pratchett. The

Post by Terry Pratchett

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Okay, it seems to have become Traditional that I kick off
the Tiffany Aching annotation threads. So here we go.
SPOILER SPACE
I
".
p239
"'iron enough to make a nail'"
Google suggests that this originates with Professor C.E.M.
Joad, but my Google-fu doesn't extend to where he said it.
The last three lines, mentioned by Tiffany later, don't
seem to be there.

Believe me or not, but I've never heard that version. When
I was a kid-- and still now -- you get / got these 'The
human body contains enough iron to make a nail'
articles[1], so I dug up a list of 'ingredients' and
assembled the song from scratch, finding suitable uses that
would work in Tiffany's world. On the farm, sulphur would
be a pest control and fumigant, for example.

I believe you. It just attracted my attention because while,
as you say, the ingredients aren't the same the format struck
me as similar.

Post by Terry Pratchett
There is in fact not a huge overlap with the only Joad
version I can find on-line, and I doubt if he would have
countenanced the last three lines:-)

Yep, most of the online refs I found were religious websites
pointing out the omission.

Post by Terry Pratchett
[1] An Edwardian version says: "It would take the iron in
the blood of thousand men to make a ploughshare."
ps: Discworld could easily have zips!

Fair enough 8-).

[Keith Edgerley]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
it, the other had the word ATHOOTITA. The words meant GUILT
and INNOCENCE."
A Google has failed to turn up anything interesting, or indeed
comprehensible, except that Enochi is a kind of mushroom.
Anyone else?

Yes, they are in fact the Greek words for guilt and innocence.

Keith Edgerleey

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 27 Sep 2006. The place: alt.fan.pratchett. The

Post by Keith Edgerley

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
it, the other had the word ATHOOTITA. The words meant GUILT
and INNOCENCE."
A Google has failed to turn up anything interesting, or
indeed comprehensible, except that Enochi is a kind of
mushroom. Anyone else?

Yes, they are in fact the Greek words for guilt and
innocence.

So they are, thanks.

[robcraine]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Okay, it seems to have become Traditional that I kick off the
Tiffany Aching annotation threads. So here we go.
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First things first: applause. I'm always impressed by whoever starts
this thread off... now its our turn to pick holes in things, and say
"why didn't you get that obvious reference?"

But didn't there used to be some sort of moratorium on discussing the
[A]s until about a week after the publishing date? Oh well.... thats
probably the Old Fart coming through, I won't let it stop me
continuing.

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
p261
"'They want me to do stuck zips'"
I hate to seem picky about this, but when exactly did the
Discworld get zips?

Presumably quite recently.... otherwise someone else would already have
the 'stuck zips' job. Apparently something rather like the zip was
first patented in 1851
http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa082497.htm so the Discworld
is probably at something close to 'zip time.'

Umm.... thats all I've got. You covered the ones I could remember, and
I've only read the thing once so far!

Rob

[Mike Stevens]

One more, that others seem to have missed (or I've missed it in their
postings).


SPOILER SPACE

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Page 188
"The address is Tir Nani Ogg".
"Tir Nani Ogg", said Tiffany, "Isn't that - ?"
"It means Nanny Ogg's Place" said Granny....

Tir na nOg (literally "the place of youth") is the afterlife in Irish
mythology.

I found this a real laugh-out-loud and one of the best puns (IMO) that Terry
has come up with.

[Arthur Hagen]

Post by Mike Stevens
One more, that others seem to have missed (or I've missed it in their
postings).
SPOILER SPACE
.
.
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Page 188
"The address is Tir Nani Ogg".
"Tir Nani Ogg", said Tiffany, "Isn't that - ?"
"It means Nanny Ogg's Place" said Granny....
Tir na nOg (literally "the place of youth") is the afterlife in Irish
mythology.
I found this a real laugh-out-loud and one of the best puns (IMO)
that Terry has come up with.

Yeah, too bad that he then beats the life out of it and flogs the corpse by
repeating it over and over again. It was funny the first time. Not the
fifth.

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 29 Sep 2006. The place: alt.fan.pratchett. The

Post by Arthur Hagen

Post by Mike Stevens
One more, that others seem to have missed (or I've missed
it in their postings).
SPOILER SPACE
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Page 188
"The address is Tir Nani Ogg".
"Tir Nani Ogg", said Tiffany, "Isn't that - ?"
"It means Nanny Ogg's Place" said Granny....
Tir na nOg (literally "the place of youth") is the
afterlife in Irish mythology.
I found this a real laugh-out-loud and one of the best
puns (IMO) that Terry has come up with.

Yeah, too bad that he then beats the life out of it and
flogs the corpse by repeating it over and over again. It
was funny the first time. Not the fifth.

Agreed that by the third time (which is as many times as I
recall, if you count Tiff repeating it as the second), it
wasn't funny; it was just "what Nanny Ogg's cottage is
called". By the same token, I didn't think, halfway through
Pyramids "He's not *still* using the Djellibeybi gag, is he?"

[Arthur Hagen]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 29 Sep 2006. The place: alt.fan.pratchett. The

Post by Arthur Hagen

Post by Mike Stevens
One more, that others seem to have missed (or I've missed
it in their postings).
SPOILER SPACE
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Page 188
"The address is Tir Nani Ogg".
"Tir Nani Ogg", said Tiffany, "Isn't that - ?"
"It means Nanny Ogg's Place" said Granny....
Tir na nOg (literally "the place of youth") is the
afterlife in Irish mythology.
I found this a real laugh-out-loud and one of the best
puns (IMO) that Terry has come up with.

Yeah, too bad that he then beats the life out of it and
flogs the corpse by repeating it over and over again. It
was funny the first time. Not the fifth.

Agreed that by the third time (which is as many times as I
recall, if you count Tiff repeating it as the second), it
wasn't funny;

Five separate occasions, not counting the first repeat by Tiffany.
(One of the joys of an ebook is that it's searchable).

Regards,

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 29 Sep 2006. The place: alt.fan.pratchett. The

Post by Arthur Hagen

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 29 Sep 2006. The place: alt.fan.pratchett. The

Post by Arthur Hagen

Post by Mike Stevens
One more, that others seem to have missed (or I've
missed it in their postings).
SPOILER SPACE
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Page 188
"The address is Tir Nani Ogg".
"Tir Nani Ogg", said Tiffany, "Isn't that - ?"
"It means Nanny Ogg's Place" said Granny....
Tir na nOg (literally "the place of youth") is the
afterlife in Irish mythology.
I found this a real laugh-out-loud and one of the best
puns (IMO) that Terry has come up with.

Yeah, too bad that he then beats the life out of it and
flogs the corpse by repeating it over and over again. It
was funny the first time. Not the fifth.

Agreed that by the third time (which is as many times as I
recall, if you count Tiff repeating it as the second), it
wasn't funny;

Five separate occasions, not counting the first repeat by
Tiffany. (One of the joys of an ebook is that it's
searchable).

Fair enough then, although the fact I didn't even notice two
of them is possibly my point 8-)...

[Sabremeister Brian]

Post by Mike Stevens
One more, that others seem to have missed (or I've missed it in their
postings).
SPOILER SPACE
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Page 188
"The address is Tir Nani Ogg".
"Tir Nani Ogg", said Tiffany, "Isn't that - ?"
"It means Nanny Ogg's Place" said Granny....
Tir na nOg (literally "the place of youth") is the afterlife in Irish
mythology.

I knew it meant seomething, I knew I'd read that it meant something
before now!

[ansh]

Post by Mike Stevens
One more, that others seem to have missed (or I've missed it in their
postings).
SPOILER SPACE
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Page 188
"The address is Tir Nani Ogg".
"Tir Nani Ogg", said Tiffany, "Isn't that - ?"
"It means Nanny Ogg's Place" said Granny....
Tir na nOg (literally "the place of youth") is the afterlife in Irish
mythology.

I thought it referred to the palace of the fae/sidhe Queen in celtic
mythology which would be cool because of the Fairy Queen trying to take
over in Lords and Ladies. (Of course I could be wrong since I'm not
too sure about this or it could be both...)

Post by Mike Stevens
I found this a real laugh-out-loud and one of the best puns (IMO) that Terry
has come up with.

Me too!! It was hilarious. I read it out to my roommate last night as
soon as I came across it and she thought I was a bit cracked...but
that's okay... :-)

Post by Mike Stevens
--
Mike Stevens

Also, does anyone remember it coming up in previous books because its
been a while since I read the "grown-up" witches books.

~ansh

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 03 Oct 2006. The place: alt.fan.pratchett. The

Post by ansh

Post by Mike Stevens
One more, that others seem to have missed (or I've missed
it in their postings).
SPOILER SPACE
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Page 188
"The address is Tir Nani Ogg".
"Tir Nani Ogg", said Tiffany, "Isn't that - ?"
"It means Nanny Ogg's Place" said Granny....
Tir na nOg (literally "the place of youth") is the
afterlife in Irish mythology.

I thought it referred to the palace of the fae/sidhe Queen
in celtic mythology which would be cool because of the
Fairy Queen trying to take over in Lords and Ladies. (Of
course I could be wrong since I'm not too sure about this
or it could be both...)

I think it's both. Originally the Sidhe were the Tuatha De
Dannan (the People of the Goddess) who departed to the
Otherworld of Tír na nÓg when the Gaels showed up[1], and were
sometimes equated with the Celtic gods. I could well believe
that their home dimension was also the Celtic version of the
Elysian Fields[2][3].

[1]And they weren't aboriginal either, having displaced the
Fir Bolg.

[2]Hmm, compare the beliefs of the Nac Mac Feegle. Although
they seem to view the Land of thr

[3]If I could find my Celtic Civ. sourcebooks I could go on
about this stuff at greater length.

[Len Oil]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Okay, it seems to have become Traditional that I kick off the
Tiffany Aching annotation threads. So here we go.
SPOILER SPACE

For my poor few, having only read the book once, and without any
deliberate [A]-spotting. And the following has more comments on some
aspects than actual annotations, but keeping the [A]-tag upon while
there's still some. (Can anyone discussing my other observations, only,
remove it from the reply? Cheers.)

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
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Not an [A], but I loved the scullery/skull reference (p.97, UK edition,
as will all future references be in this post). Not a pun that has
/ever/ occurred to me, and hence funny.


Also not an [A]nnotation, but I recall a children's story (televised?)
involving a weatherhouse, and part of the plot being about the
summer-woman and the rain man never being in (or out) of the house at
the same time. Just a datum point. (Page reference not found, sorry.
Second time round maybe.)


Ouch. I know that "apologize" (e.g. p 236, 2nd para) is a legitimate
English English version of "apologise", but that (and a couple of other
versions) got me.


p355: "Who could live in a place like this?" Well, it /could/ be too
obvious to be an [A] or not intended at all, but the _Through The
Keyhole_ reference leapt out at me.


p355: "A nice palace with no kitchen, no bed... He didn't need to eat or
sleep, so who was it for?
She knew the answer already: me."
Strange wording. If it had no kitchen, no bed and wintersmith needed
neither, then why wouldn't it be for wintersmith? (Of course, I get the
idea. It was designed for Tiffany-as-Summer. But I don't see the logic.


Compare pages 28 and 335. Did the young Tiffany wear /only/ a vest, or
/not/ a vest (but otherwise decent)?


Horace's name. Daft Wullie didn't need to be told (p.332). They were
all told (p.65).


Finally (for now)... Tiffany was dealing with the wintersmith. Roland
was dealing with the Summer Woman. What would have happened had only
one or the other been successful? Was Tiffany only successful in her
endeavour because Roland was? Or vice-versa?

#####


And here's a comment on one of the original comments....

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
p384
"She was beginning to remind Tiffany a lot of Annagramma."
When it looked like Tiffany was going to get a cottage she
didn't really want, Anagramma suspected her trying to take it
from her, because that's what *she'd* have done. The Summer
Lady's reaction to Tiffany "stealing" her role is indeed
pretty much the same.

Also, she called Tiffany "sheep-witch", compared with Annagramma
derisively calling Petulia "pig-witch". Similar psychological mirroring.




(Worst thing is that a lot of the points I was going to make, even /had/
made, are discussed elsewhere. e.g. the "two winters, two summers" one.
So I've had to cut down several of the points /and/
personally-discovered annotations, rendering this entire post stripped
to the bone, and rather less interesting bones.)

((Second worst thing is that Thunderbird appears not to work out that a
message marked as read in ABP should also be marked as read in AFP. Or
vice-versa, depending on which group you first check. OE did that Ok.
Of course, it's probably arranged by an option I haven't found yet, or
have accidentally turned off.))

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 01 Oct 2006. The place: alt.fan.pratchett. The

Post by Len Oil

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Okay, it seems to have become Traditional that I kick off
the Tiffany Aching annotation threads. So here we go.
SPOILER SPACE

For my poor few, having only read the book once, and
without any deliberate [A]-spotting. And the following has
more comments on some aspects than actual annotations, but
keeping the [A]-tag upon while there's still some. (Can
anyone discussing my other observations, only, remove it
from the reply? Cheers.)

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
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Not an [A], but I loved the scullery/skull reference (p.97,
UK edition, as will all future references be in this post).
Not a pun that has /ever/ occurred to me, and hence funny.
Also not an [A]nnotation, but I recall a children's story
(televised?) involving a weatherhouse, and part of the plot
being about the summer-woman and the rain man never being
in (or out) of the house at the same time. Just a datum
point. (Page reference not found, sorry. Second time round
maybe.)

That rings a bell for me too.

Post by Len Oil
Compare pages 28 and 335. Did the young Tiffany wear
/only/ a vest, or /not/ a vest (but otherwise decent)?

Based on my own experience of two year olds, I'm quite
prepared to believe both on different occasions. Also "without
her vest" in this context probably means "in just her pants".

Post by Len Oil
Horace's name. Daft Wullie didn't need to be told (p.332).
They were all told (p.65).

Not *specifically* though. Mrs Treason was basically thinking
aloud, and the Feegles weren't following much of it. A vague
mention of "could she mean Horace?" wrt "a cheese that walks
like a man" is not evidence that the cheese they eventually
find is called Horace. But Daft Wullie knows.

(Now *there's* a question the Mary Sue test hasn't thought of.
Psychic communication with animals, yes, but not cheeses.)

<snip>

Post by Len Oil
And here's a comment on one of the original comments....

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
p384
"She was beginning to remind Tiffany a lot of
Annagramma." When it looked like Tiffany was going to get
a cottage she didn't really want, Anagramma suspected her
trying to take it from her, because that's what *she'd*
have done. The Summer Lady's reaction to Tiffany
"stealing" her role is indeed pretty much the same.

Also, she called Tiffany "sheep-witch", compared with
Annagramma derisively calling Petulia "pig-witch". Similar
psychological mirroring.

Ooh, good catch.

[Joe Bednorz]

Post by Len Oil

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Okay, it seems to have become Traditional that I kick off the
Tiffany Aching annotation threads. So here we go.
SPOILER SPACE

For my poor few, having only read the book once, and without any
deliberate [A]-spotting. And the following has more comments on some
aspects than actual annotations, but keeping the [A]-tag upon while
there's still some. (Can anyone discussing my other observations, only,
remove it from the reply? Cheers.)

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
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Also not an [A]nnotation, but I recall a children's story (televised?)
involving a weatherhouse, and part of the plot being about the
summer-woman and the rain man never being in (or out) of the house at
the same time. Just a datum point. (Page reference not found, sorry.
Second time round maybe.)

It was on Benny Hill. Well done, too. No dialog but a nice little
sing-song narration instead.

Post by Len Oil
((Second worst thing is that Thunderbird appears not to work out that a
message marked as read in ABP should also be marked as read in AFP. Or
vice-versa, depending on which group you first check. OE did that Ok.
Of course, it's probably arranged by an option I haven't found yet, or
have accidentally turned off.))

I'm not aware of any news reader that does that. It doesn't seem like
something easy to implement, either.

Bugzilla shows this as "Nobody's working on this, feel free to take it"

<https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43278>

It was opened on "2000-06-21 01:03 PDT".



Some newsreaders deal with that by not downloading a specific message
more than once, no matter how many newsgroups it has been crossposted
to. Or it may mark it read when it's downloaded into a different group.

Forte Agent newsreader has the option of not downloading the message
again after the first time. Or downloading crossposts but marking any
downloads after the first time as read.

This doesn't work all that well for non-spam crossposts. For afp and
abp sometimes you'll get the first download of a crossposted message in
afp, sometimes in abp.

I'm not sure there's a good solution, except for people not to
crosspost between the two groups. (And that's only relatively good, not
absolutely good.) Perhaps just read the thread in one group? That may
not be good at all, given how bad threading can get.

[Arthur Hagen]

Post by Joe Bednorz

Post by Len Oil
((Second worst thing is that Thunderbird appears not to work out
that a message marked as read in ABP should also be marked as read
in AFP. Or vice-versa, depending on which group you first check.
OE did that Ok. Of course, it's probably arranged by an option I
haven't found yet, or have accidentally turned off.))

I'm not aware of any news reader that does that. It doesn't seem
like something easy to implement, either.

Exceedingly easy to implement, due to there only being a single Message-ID
to mark read. You'll have to jump through hoops to <B>not</B> get this
functionality, by doing something silly like indexing on the server post
number for each group instead of Message-ID to save a few bytes - in which
case you're hosed whenever the news server does a renumber, and you waste
even more bytes by saving the same posts multiple times.

Post by Joe Bednorz
Some newsreaders deal with that by not downloading a specific message
more than once, no matter how many newsgroups it has been crossposted
to. Or it may mark it read when it's downloaded into a different group.
Forte Agent newsreader has the option of not downloading the message
again after the first time. Or downloading crossposts but marking any
downloads after the first time as read.

News clients usually fetch messages in two different ways[1]: Either (a) by
asking for a full range based on a counter, in which case all posts (or
headers) are polled down and either saved or discarded after being received,
or (b) by asking the news server for the Message-IDs of all messages since a
certain date, and then asking for the wanted posts only.
The former works well if you want nearly all messages, as it has little
overhead, while the latter works much better if you either filter on
Message-ID or get a fair amount of crossposts, cause you won't download the
same message more than once.
In any case, downloading a post again seems a waste if you already have that
post somewhere else. Even if you purge one group, the Message-ID should be
considered in-use if it's in another present group, and only go away if you
purge all groups in which the post was made.

[1]: There's also some hybrid approaches, like always re-fetching the last
post header to see whether there's been a renumber, and if so, download by
date, otherwise by number range.

Regards,

[Alec Cawley]

Post by Joe Bednorz

Post by Len Oil
((Second worst thing is that Thunderbird appears not to work out that a
message marked as read in ABP should also be marked as read in AFP. Or
vice-versa, depending on which group you first check. OE did that Ok.
Of course, it's probably arranged by an option I haven't found yet, or
have accidentally turned off.))

I'm not aware of any news reader that does that. It doesn't seem like
something easy to implement, either.
Bugzilla shows this as "Nobody's working on this, feel free to take it"
<https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43278>
It was opened on "2000-06-21 01:03 PDT".
Some newsreaders deal with that by not downloading a specific message
more than once, no matter how many newsgroups it has been crossposted
to. Or it may mark it read when it's downloaded into a different group.
Forte Agent newsreader has the option of not downloading the message
again after the first time. Or downloading crossposts but marking any
downloads after the first time as read.
This doesn't work all that well for non-spam crossposts. For afp and
abp sometimes you'll get the first download of a crossposted message in
afp, sometimes in abp.
I'm not sure there's a good solution, except for people not to
crosspost between the two groups. (And that's only relatively good, not
absolutely good.) Perhaps just read the thread in one group? That may
not be good at all, given how bad threading can get.

Turnpike marks a post as read in all groups at first reading in any
group. In practice it works well for me because I tend to read NGs in
the same order, so a cross-posted thread appears to inhabit the first
group I encounter it in. Provided people don/t change the crossposts, it
"disappears" from the second group. And if people change crossposts
because validity has changed, the same thing happens. I am dropping abp
from this because it is no longer about Wintersmith.

[Paul Cooke]

Post by Len Oil
((Second worst thing is that Thunderbird appears not to work out that a
message marked as read in ABP should also be marked as read in AFP.  Or
vice-versa, depending on which group you first check.  OE did that Ok.
Of course, it's probably arranged by an option I haven't found yet, or
have accidentally turned off.))

I'm not aware of any news reader that does that.  It doesn't seem like
something easy to implement, either.

Knode... but then again, I'm not using windows... so I have a far greater
choice... :)

[j***@hotmail.com]

Post by Len Oil

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
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p355: "A nice palace with no kitchen, no bed... He didn't need to eat or
sleep, so who was it for?
She knew the answer already: me."
Strange wording. If it had no kitchen, no bed and wintersmith needed
neither, then why wouldn't it be for wintersmith? (Of course, I get the
idea. It was designed for Tiffany-as-Summer. But I don't see the logic.

Me either. Is it a mis-print of some sort do you think ?

Cheers,

John

[Cindy Hamilton]

Post by j***@hotmail.com

Post by Len Oil

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
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p355: "A nice palace with no kitchen, no bed... He didn't need to eat or
sleep, so who was it for?
She knew the answer already: me."
Strange wording. If it had no kitchen, no bed and wintersmith needed
neither, then why wouldn't it be for wintersmith? (Of course, I get the
idea. It was designed for Tiffany-as-Summer. But I don't see the logic.

Me either. Is it a mis-print of some sort do you think ?

I don't think so. I think the Wintersmith is clueless on the
importance of
kitchens, beds, and (for that matter) privies. He built the palace for
Tiffany,
but he didn't build it correctly, because he fundamentally doesn't
understand what it is to be human.

Weren't there some features like that in Death's domain (early on)?
Furnishings
that looked like their real-world counterparts, but were
non-functional.

Cindy Hamilton

[John Anderton]

Post by Cindy Hamilton

Post by j***@hotmail.com

Post by Len Oil

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
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p355: "A nice palace with no kitchen, no bed... He didn't need to eat or
sleep, so who was it for?
She knew the answer already: me."
Strange wording. If it had no kitchen, no bed and wintersmith needed
neither, then why wouldn't it be for wintersmith? (Of course, I get the
idea. It was designed for Tiffany-as-Summer. But I don't see the logic.

Me either. Is it a mis-print of some sort do you think ?

I don't think so. I think the Wintersmith is clueless on the
importance of
kitchens, beds, and (for that matter) privies. He built the palace for
Tiffany,
but he didn't build it correctly, because he fundamentally doesn't
understand what it is to be human.

I realise that but the sentence, as it stands, doesn't make sense.

It does make more sense with a few grammatical changes :
Instead of "A nice palace with no kitchen, no bed... He didn't need to
eat or sleep, so who was it for?"
perhaps : "A nice palace with no kitchen, no bed... he didn't need to
eat or sleep. So, who was it for?"

Cheers,

John

[Len Oil]

Post by John Anderton

Post by Cindy Hamilton

Post by j***@hotmail.com

Post by Len Oil

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
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p355: "A nice palace with no kitchen, no bed... He didn't need to eat or
sleep, so who was it for?
She knew the answer already: me."
Strange wording. If it had no kitchen, no bed and wintersmith needed
neither, then why wouldn't it be for wintersmith? (Of course, I get the
idea. It was designed for Tiffany-as-Summer. But I don't see the logic.

Me either. Is it a mis-print of some sort do you think ?

I don't think so. I think the Wintersmith is clueless on the
importance of
kitchens, beds, and (for that matter) privies. He built the palace for
Tiffany,
but he didn't build it correctly, because he fundamentally doesn't
understand what it is to be human.

I realise that but the sentence, as it stands, doesn't make sense.
Instead of "A nice palace with no kitchen, no bed... He didn't need to
eat or sleep, so who was it for?"
perhaps : "A nice palace with no kitchen, no bed... he didn't need to
eat or sleep. So, who was it for?"

I think it's very much problematical.


I can see what the aim of the logic is, but I'm not entirely sure that
(my interpretation) of the facts as given can lead there. It's not even
as if it's a "Ah... how perceptive Tiffany is!" sort of thing.

The wintersmith as an elemental did not need those things.

The wintersmith in his first incarnation as an anthropomorphic
personification did the food thing[1], but only to fit in as human.
Tiffany, in her thoughts, certainly does not anticipate so, in any
palace for himself.

And thus wintersmith has also not provided them in the palace[2]. He
also doesn't anticipate their need then. Doesn't anticipate needing
them for himself, and doesn't even anticipate Tiffany needing them,
during the permanent residence he intends her to have. And maybe she
wouldn't want them. If existence there keeps the Capitalised One at
bay, then fellow-horseman Famine is surely excluded, and... other
business ends up being unnecessary. And/or 'arrangements will be
made'[4], if force of habit still works as in Death's Domain.

But that doesn't leave much in the way of clues that it was "Obviously
designed for Tiffany", does it?


But, honestly, it was just a minor quibble. As was the vests thing,
which was merely a puzzle about how a singular (Tiffanyesque) 'narrative
voice' would bring up two quite particularly similar yet crucially
different images to the reader's attention.

Being more or less the sum-total of any 'issues' I might have with the
book, I don't want to make much of a fuss, though.



[1] And /may/ have worked out the follow-up to that, though the fact he
only brags about eating the human food, without naively continuing to
brag about the 'rest', would suggest otherwise. (No mention of any
well-chewed sausage remains in the part Annagramma disencorpulates him,
though. ;)

[2] I don't think he was ever really been anthropomorphic enough (even
during the Dance) to have a palace before, unlike the likes of the the
Tooth Fairy who has the castle/tower[3] of teeth, and a lot of the rest
of the full-blown deities who have their own designer nook and/or cranny
in Dunmanifestin.

[3] Putting off my next re-reading of Hogfather until after I get my
sticky little mitts on the upcoming production, one way or another, in
an effort to not go "they got that wrong!" every two minutes... ;) This
has the (intended) side effect that my memories of the book are going to
dissolve... ;)

[4] c.f the recent-ish thread about garderobes... ;)

[Torak]

Post by Cindy Hamilton

Post by j***@hotmail.com

Post by Len Oil

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
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p355: "A nice palace with no kitchen, no bed... He didn't need to eat or
sleep, so who was it for?
She knew the answer already: me."
Strange wording. If it had no kitchen, no bed and wintersmith needed
neither, then why wouldn't it be for wintersmith? (Of course, I get the
idea. It was designed for Tiffany-as-Summer. But I don't see the logic.

Me either. Is it a mis-print of some sort do you think ?

I don't think so. I think the Wintersmith is clueless on the
importance of
kitchens, beds, and (for that matter) privies. He built the palace for
Tiffany,
but he didn't build it correctly, because he fundamentally doesn't
understand what it is to be human.
Weren't there some features like that in Death's domain (early on)?
Furnishings
that looked like their real-world counterparts, but were
non-functional.

"...and Death did not seem to have realised that towels were meant to be
soft" or something, isn't it?

We summon the Memory-Meister, the Quotefinder General, the one, the only
Daibh!

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 04 Oct 2006. The place: alt.fan.pratchett. The
(No spoilers left)

Post by Torak

Post by Cindy Hamilton
Weren't there some features like that in Death's domain
(early on)? Furnishings
that looked like their real-world counterparts, but were
non-functional.

"...and Death did not seem to have realised that towels
were meant to be soft" or something, isn't it?
We summon the Memory-Meister, the Quotefinder General, the
one, the only Daibh!

LOL. Yeah, in SM Death's bathroom has hard black towels and
unusable bone-white soap, and also a ragged YMPA towel and a
thin bar of carbolic, both provided by Albert.

[Mike Stevens]

Post by j***@hotmail.com

Post by Len Oil

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
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p355: "A nice palace with no kitchen, no bed... He didn't need to
eat or sleep, so who was it for?
She knew the answer already: me."
Strange wording. If it had no kitchen, no bed and wintersmith needed
neither, then why wouldn't it be for wintersmith? (Of course, I get
the idea. It was designed for Tiffany-as-Summer. But I don't see
the logic.

Me either. Is it a mis-print of some sort do you think ?

My reaction was to compare it with many things in Death's Domain which have
the appearance of everyday items but were created with no understanding of
what they were about. Wintersmith had designed the palace for Tiffany
without any understanding of what a real person (as opposed to an
anthropomorphic personification would need, possibly because he wasn't at
that time distunguiching between Tiffany and Summer.

[Patrician]

Post by Mike Stevens

Post by j***@hotmail.com

Post by Len Oil

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
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p355: "A nice palace with no kitchen, no bed... He didn't need to
eat or sleep, so who was it for?
She knew the answer already: me."
Strange wording. If it had no kitchen, no bed and wintersmith needed
neither, then why wouldn't it be for wintersmith? (Of course, I get
the idea. It was designed for Tiffany-as-Summer. But I don't see
the logic.

Me either. Is it a mis-print of some sort do you think ?

My reaction was to compare it with many things in Death's Domain which
have the appearance of everyday items but were created with no
understanding of what they were about. Wintersmith had designed the
palace for Tiffany without any understanding of what a real person (as
opposed to an anthropomorphic personification would need, possibly because
he wasn't at that time distunguiching between Tiffany and Summer.
--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus III
web-site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
No man is an island. So is Man.

Yes, thats called "fan wanking". When the writer gets something "wrong" and
the "fans" find a way to explain it. Anyway they can!

Trev

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 07 Oct 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Patrician

Post by Mike Stevens

Post by j***@hotmail.com

Post by Len Oil

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
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p355: "A nice palace with no kitchen, no bed... He
didn't need to eat or sleep, so who was it for?
She knew the answer already: me."
Strange wording. If it had no kitchen, no bed and
wintersmith needed neither, then why wouldn't it be for
wintersmith? (Of course, I get the idea. It was
designed for Tiffany-as-Summer. But I don't see the
logic.

Me either. Is it a mis-print of some sort do you think ?

My reaction was to compare it with many things in Death's
Domain which have the appearance of everyday items but
were created with no understanding of what they were
about. Wintersmith had designed the palace for Tiffany
without any understanding of what a real person (as
opposed to an anthropomorphic personification would need,
possibly because he wasn't at that time distunguiching
between Tiffany and Summer.

Yes, thats called "fan wanking". When the writer gets
something "wrong" and the "fans" find a way to explain it.
Anyway they can!

Actually, that seems to be pretty obviously what it means
*without* the misprint...

[Richard Bos]

Post by Len Oil

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Okay, it seems to have become Traditional that I kick off the
Tiffany Aching annotation threads. So here we go.
SPOILER SPACE

For my poor few, having only read the book once, and without any
deliberate [A]-spotting. And the following has more comments on some
aspects than actual annotations, but keeping the [A]-tag upon while
there's still some. (Can anyone discussing my other observations, only,
remove it from the reply? Cheers.)

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
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Finally (for now)... Tiffany was dealing with the wintersmith. Roland
was dealing with the Summer Woman. What would have happened had only
one or the other been successful? Was Tiffany only successful in her
endeavour because Roland was? Or vice-versa?

Both, I think. If either had failed, so would the other. (Why? Because
it's The Right Thing, as such stories go.)

Richard

[Skimble]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Okay, it seems to have become Traditional that I kick off the
Tiffany Aching annotation threads. So here we go.
SPOILER SPACE
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Hello, everyone!

I'm not sure if it was previously mentioned in the earlier Aching books
and it has only now pricked my attention due to the Nac Mac Feegle
glossary in "Wintersmith", but it seems that Terry has finally provided a
cast-iron use for a Spog! (p. 12)

As a good friend and current housemate of the original [1] Spog I feel I
must ask whether this was an intentional nod to the AFP Spog, or whether
this was a coincidence, and the idea was to form a word similar to
'Sporran'.

I pointed it out to Spog and I think he was quite pleased that his name
still lives on in association with the Discworld, even if it is nothing
more than a coincidence.

- Richard Bellingham

[1] And infamous! Who still remembers his reign of terror in the
mid-1990's?

[Richard Bos]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Okay, it seems to have become Traditional that I kick off the
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First things first: It's the wrong size! Tiffany books
shouldn't be fullsize hardbacks, they should be compact, and
have Kidby sillouettes of Feegles chasing each other through
the page numbers. Did the references to sex worry someone at
the publishers out of it being a children's book?
A Vetruvian Snowman, presumably symbolising the Wintersmith's
"Making of a Man".

But, oddly enough, with Roundworld astrological symbols around it. One
would have expected a stylised Celestial Parsnip, Knotted String, or
Small Boring Group of Faint Stars.

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
p218
"'The Summer Lady doesn't walk above the ground in winter'"
Sort of Persephone, although technically it's Persephone's mum
who's the Summer Lady, and she just goes on strike until her
daughter comes back.

Although in some versions of that myth, it's the hot, dry summer when
Demeter goes into hiding.

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
p349
"She reached down and pulled out, covered in slime and scales,
but recognisably itself, the silver horse."
Famous myth, associated with (amongst others) St Mungo of
Glasgow. Nanny Ogg refers to it in Wyrd Sisters.

There's also a Dutch version, but the lady in that version does not end
well.

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
p368
"'One verrae big dog wi' three heads.'"
Cerebus

Cerberus.

p284
"Blind Io created the Cornucopia from a horn of the magical goat Almeg
to feed his two childern by the Goddess Bisonomy..."
In Greek myth, Amaltheia was (a nymph metamorphosed into) the goat who
suckled Zeus, not his sons, when he was hiding from his father as an
infant, on Crete. Later, Zeus created the Cornucopia from a horn of
Amaltheia.
The rest of the sentence, including the name Bisonomy, parodies the
typical muddle of minor Greek myths, but not AFAICT any specific one.
BTW: Bisonomy? Any relation to certain forbidden practices by I-forget-
which god?

Richard

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 06 Oct 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Richard Bos

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
Okay, it seems to have become Traditional that I kick off
the Tiffany Aching annotation threads. So here we go.
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First things first: It's the wrong size! Tiffany books
shouldn't be fullsize hardbacks, they should be compact,
and have Kidby sillouettes of Feegles chasing each other
through the page numbers. Did the references to sex worry
someone at the publishers out of it being a children's
book?
A Vetruvian Snowman, presumably symbolising the
Wintersmith's "Making of a Man".

But, oddly enough, with Roundworld astrological symbols
around it. One would have expected a stylised Celestial
Parsnip, Knotted String, or Small Boring Group of Faint
Stars.

While they *are* astrological symbols (for the planets, rather
than the zodiac), I think in this case they're intended to be
alchemical symbols (representing the Winterking's belief that
being human is a matter of chemicals).

In our world these are identical, but RW alchemy associated
its materials with the planets. Discworld astrology doesn't
take planets seriously, and there's no indication it's seen as
part of DW alchemy, so the symbols are probably only used by
alchemists.

Post by Richard Bos

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
p368
"'One verrae big dog wi' three heads.'"
Cerebus

Cerberus.

So it is.

Post by Richard Bos
p284
"Blind Io created the Cornucopia from a horn of the magical
goat Almeg to feed his two childern by the Goddess
Bisonomy..." In Greek myth, Amaltheia was (a nymph
metamorphosed into) the goat who suckled Zeus, not his
sons, when he was hiding from his father as an infant, on
Crete. Later, Zeus created the Cornucopia from a horn of
Amaltheia.
The rest of the sentence, including the name Bisonomy,
parodies the typical muddle of minor Greek myths, but not
AFAICT any specific one. BTW: Bisonomy? Any relation to
certain forbidden practices by I-forget- which god?

IIRC, Bisonomy was one of the virtues no-one understood in GP;
the sin no-one understood in TLH was panpunoplasty. While in
RW, the seven virtues are (AFAIK) a Christian concept, I can
see the DW pantheon including them as minor goddesses similar
to the Graces.

[m***@gmail.com]

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The one that's really been bothering me is the Wintersmith's little
snatch of opera on page 302 - "Uberwald Winter" by Wotua Doinov. A
little prodding around online has revealed that the Russian he sings
translates as something like "Become cold again" or "Freeze again".
Does anyone know if this is a reference to some RW opera? The only
thing I can think of is the Cold Genius' aria in Purcell's KingArthur,
which finishes "Let me freeze again". Although it's conspicuously not
in Russian, so it has less of a match.

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 09 Oct 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by m***@gmail.com

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The one that's really been bothering me is the
Wintersmith's little snatch of opera on page 302 -
"Uberwald Winter" by Wotua Doinov. A little prodding around
online has revealed that the Russian he sings translates as
something like "Become cold again" or "Freeze again". Does
anyone know if this is a reference to some RW opera? The
only thing I can think of is the Cold Genius' aria in
Purcell's KingArthur, which finishes "Let me freeze again".
Although it's conspicuously not in Russian, so it has less
of a match.

Well, I've just found something interesting!

Checking Wikipedia for Russian opera, I found that Rimsky-
Korsokov wrote an opera called "The Snow Maiden", based on a
play by Alexandr Ostrovsky, based on a Russian fairy tale. The
title character is the daughter of Spring Beauty and
Grandfather Frost, and is unable to love because she's made of
snow. After her mother gives her the ability to love, she
melts. Also, it remains winter for the fifteen years of the
Snow Maiden's life, and the boy who woos her is a shepherd.

Haven't found anything on Uberwald Winter, though...

[Alec Cawley]

Post by m***@gmail.com

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The one that's really been bothering me is the Wintersmith's little
snatch of opera on page 302 - "Uberwald Winter" by Wotua Doinov. A
little prodding around online has revealed that the Russian he sings
translates as something like "Become cold again" or "Freeze again".
Does anyone know if this is a reference to some RW opera? The only
thing I can think of is the Cold Genius' aria in Purcell's KingArthur,
which finishes "Let me freeze again". Although it's conspicuously not
in Russian, so it has less of a match.

I hope I am not the only person to have noticed that this composer's
name is "What you are doing of"? Which is a verry Oggish way of putting
things.

[mrslant]

Post by Alec Cawley

Post by m***@gmail.com

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The one that's really been bothering me is the Wintersmith's little
snatch of opera on page 302 - "Uberwald Winter" by Wotua Doinov. A
little prodding around online has revealed that the Russian he sings
translates as something like "Become cold again" or "Freeze again".
Does anyone know if this is a reference to some RW opera? The only
thing I can think of is the Cold Genius' aria in Purcell's KingArthur,
which finishes "Let me freeze again". Although it's conspicuously not
in Russian, so it has less of a match.

I hope I am not the only person to have noticed that this composer's
name is "What you are doing of"? Which is a verry Oggish way of putting
things.

I noticed that. Possibly it should be "What you a-doin' of?" :-)

Colin