Wintersmith and the Greek language

[ptosky]

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Hello everyone, sorry for barging in like that but what with the bad
weather outside, it seemed like a nice warm place to hung out. Well
Wintersmith is officially my second most favourite Pratchett book
(Nightwatch being number 1). Anyway regarding the horn of plenty and
ham sandwiches incident I would like to add my two drachma.

I was delighted to see my native language in a book by my favourite
author, but ... Wintersmith's Greek was all Greek to me. First of
all the inscription on the horn of plenty is missing letters and is
misspelled. I will not go into the "more ham sandwiches"
translation (May the saints protect me! Brr!).

Please do not get me wrong I really love Pratchett's work (I have all
books, diaries, maps etc.), but I wonder how he came upon such bad
translations. If anyone has Greek fonts and would be interested in
seeing the correct translations I would be happy to oblige.

I hope the above was of even the slightest interest to someone in here.
I must be offski!

Bye

[Jens Kleine]

Post by ptosky
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If anyone has Greek fonts and would be interested in
seeing the correct translations I would be happy to oblige.

I don't have those fonts but could you just give us a list of the
translations in the order of appearance?

Yours Jens

[robcraine]

Post by ptosky
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Hello everyone, sorry for barging in like that but what with the bad
weather outside, it seemed like a nice warm place to hung out. Well
Wintersmith is officially my second most favourite Pratchett book
(Nightwatch being number 1). Anyway regarding the horn of plenty and
ham sandwiches incident I would like to add my two drachma.
I was delighted to see my native language in a book by my favourite
author, but ... Wintersmith's Greek was all Greek to me. First of
all the inscription on the horn of plenty is missing letters and is
misspelled. I will not go into the "more ham sandwiches"
translation (May the saints protect me! Brr!).
Please do not get me wrong I really love Pratchett's work (I have all
books, diaries, maps etc.), but I wonder how he came upon such bad
translations. If anyone has Greek fonts and would be interested in
seeing the correct translations I would be happy to oblige.
I hope the above was of even the slightest interest to someone in here.
I must be offski!

It really is all Greek to me too... but I suspect that just as
'Latatian' is a very aproximate version of badly spelled school boy
Latin, the language used in W is not meant to be Greek... just a
language that is a bit like greek. It is never named, but presumably it
is some sort of ancient ephebian/tsortian.

What does the 'more ham sandwiches' actually translate as? it could
well have been a deliberate mis-translation.

Rob

[ptosky]

Post by robcraine

Post by ptosky
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Hello everyone, sorry for barging in like that but what with the bad
weather outside, it seemed like a nice warm place to hung out. Well
Wintersmith is officially my second most favourite Pratchett book
(Nightwatch being number 1). Anyway regarding the horn of plenty and
ham sandwiches incident I would like to add my two drachma.
I was delighted to see my native language in a book by my favourite
author, but ... Wintersmith's Greek was all Greek to me. First of
all the inscription on the horn of plenty is missing letters and is
misspelled. I will not go into the "more ham sandwiches"
translation (May the saints protect me! Brr!).
Please do not get me wrong I really love Pratchett's work (I have all
books, diaries, maps etc.), but I wonder how he came upon such bad
translations. If anyone has Greek fonts and would be interested in
seeing the correct translations I would be happy to oblige.
I hope the above was of even the slightest interest to someone in here.
I must be offski!

It really is all Greek to me too... but I suspect that just as
'Latatian' is a very aproximate version of badly spelled school boy
Latin, the language used in W is not meant to be Greek... just a
language that is a bit like greek. It is never named, but presumably it
is some sort of ancient ephebian/tsortian.
What does the 'more ham sandwiches' actually translate as? it could
well have been a deliberate mis-translation.
Rob

I agree with your point on Latatian but the Greek translation is so bad
that some words are not intelligible even as misspelled Greek words.
For example out of the 5 words on the translation of "more
sandwiches", 2 words are really Greek while the other 3 are just Greek
letters strung together. If I wrote down "ndt" while meaning to write
the word "bed" it would be more than just misspelled English wouldn't
it?

Regarding what Jens asked the Greek translations are approximation of
what Dr Bustle says in English. No hidden puns or word play. It would
be cool if there were, sort of like a secret code (for the non Greek
speaking readers of course).

I don't know how this will come out on your screens but in order of
appearance the correct Greek phrases are:

"ΠΑΝΤΑ ΠΟΥ ΕΠΙΘΥΜΕΙΣ, ΧΑΡΙΖΩ ΕΠΙ ΕΝΑ
ΟΝΟΜΑ"
"ΜΕΓΑΛΩΝΩ ΣΥΣΤΕΛΛΟΜΑΙ"
"Ένα σάντουιτς ζαμπόν με μουστάρδα"
"Δώσε μου πολλά σάντουιτς ζαμπόν"
"Όχι περισσότερα (άλλα) σάντουιτς
ζαμπόν"

The word in brackets in the last sentence would be a better translation
of “more”, in my opinion. The two first sentences are in capital
letters. The little dots over some of the words are strees marks.

Dimitra

[Richard Bos]

Post by ptosky

Post by robcraine

Post by ptosky
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I was delighted to see my native language in a book by my favourite
author, but ... Wintersmith's Greek was all Greek to me. First of
all the inscription on the horn of plenty is missing letters and is
misspelled. I will not go into the "more ham sandwiches"
translation (May the saints protect me! Brr!).

It really is all Greek to me too... but I suspect that just as
'Latatian' is a very aproximate version of badly spelled school boy
Latin, the language used in W is not meant to be Greek... just a
language that is a bit like greek. It is never named, but presumably it
is some sort of ancient ephebian/tsortian.
What does the 'more ham sandwiches' actually translate as? it could
well have been a deliberate mis-translation.

I agree with your point on Latatian but the Greek translation is so bad
that some words are not intelligible even as misspelled Greek words.

And how does that differ from Latatian, then?

Post by ptosky
For example out of the 5 words on the translation of "more
sandwiches", 2 words are really Greek while the other 3 are just Greek
letters strung together.

Compare the fourth word of that sentence with the second word of the
previous "Greek"/Ephebian sentence. It's clear to me that 1. that word
is nothing but an attempt at transliterating "sandwich" into Greek
letters, and I've no idea whether that leads to a halfway decent Greek
word for sandwich but it's understandable, _and_ 2. the second sentence
has been badly transcribed from the manuscript by the typesetter. It's
clearly meant to be the same word twice, but someone who doesn't even
read the Greek alphabet presumably mucked it up.

What I want to know is, how does the "Russian" sentence on the first
line of page 302 compare to real Russian?

Richard

[Ann]

Post by Richard Bos

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What I want to know is, how does the "Russian" sentence on the first
line of page 302 compare to real Russian?
Richard

<Delurks, just for this occasion> Absolutely real Russian, take it from
someone who lived there for the (still) longest part of her life. Was
quite a pleasant surprise. I wonder, is this a first in English book?
If it is, nice for it to happen in the one by my favourite author.
Icing on the cake of finally having a new one by him...

For what it's worth.

Anna

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 05 Oct 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Ann

Post by Richard Bos

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What I want to know is, how does the "Russian" sentence on
the first line of page 302 compare to real Russian?
Richard

<Delurks, just for this occasion> Absolutely real Russian,
take it from someone who lived there for the (still)
longest part of her life. Was quite a pleasant surprise. I
wonder, is this a first in English book? If it is, nice for
it to happen in the one by my favourite author. Icing on
the cake of finally having a new one by him...
For what it's worth.

Was my transliteration into Roman letters *close*? And, either
way, what does it mean?

[Ann]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 05 Oct 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

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Was my transliteration into Roman letters *close*?

The closest I can imagine.

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
And, either
way, what does it mean?

Alas, there was no "snow" in it. It translates as "It's got cold(er)
again". (Or, for a variety's sake, you could translate it as "The cold
has returned". But this version is something a REALLY poetically-minded
person could come up with <g>).

Anna

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 05 Oct 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

=CE=9F/=CE=97 robcraine

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What I want to know is, how does the "Russian" sentence on

the first line of page 302 compare to real Russian?

It says "SNOVA POKHOLODADO". At a guess the first word is
"Rusglish" for "snow". The second I have no idea about.

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 05 Oct 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Richard Bos

=CE=9F/=CE=97 robcraine

Post by robcraine

Post by ptosky
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I was delighted to see my native language in a book by
my favourite author, but ... Wintersmith's Greek was
all Greek to me. First of all the inscription on the
horn of plenty is missing letters and is misspelled. I
will not go into the "more ham sandwiches" translation
(May the saints protect me! Brr!).

It really is all Greek to me too... but I suspect that
just as 'Latatian' is a very aproximate version of badly
spelled school boy Latin, the language used in W is not
meant to be Greek... just a language that is a bit like
greek. It is never named, but presumably it is some sort
of ancient ephebian/tsortian.
What does the 'more ham sandwiches' actually translate
as? it could well have been a deliberate
mis-translation.

I agree with your point on Latatian but the Greek
translation is so bad that some words are not intelligible
even as misspelled Greek words.

And how does that differ from Latatian, then?

For example out of the 5 words on the translation of
"more sandwiches", 2 words are really Greek while the
other 3 are just Greek letters strung together.

Compare the fourth word of that sentence with the second
word of the previous "Greek"/Ephebian sentence. It's clear
to me that 1. that word is nothing but an attempt at
transliterating "sandwich" into Greek letters, and I've no
idea whether that leads to a halfway decent Greek word for
sandwich but it's understandable, _and_ 2. the second
sentence has been badly transcribed from the manuscript by
the typesetter. It's clearly meant to be the same word
twice, but someone who doesn't even read the Greek alphabet
presumably mucked it up.

I suspect the third word of the "stop" sentence is the same. I
also suspect the word that gets rendered in the three
sentences as "xampon", "campon" and "zampon" is intended to be
"ham" with a Greek-sounding suffix (or possibly "gammon").

[Richard Bos]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 05 Oct 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Richard Bos

=CE=9F/=CE=97 robcraine

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Compare the fourth word of that sentence with the second
word of the previous "Greek"/Ephebian sentence. It's clear
to me that 1. that word is nothing but an attempt at
transliterating "sandwich" into Greek letters, and I've no
idea whether that leads to a halfway decent Greek word for
sandwich but it's understandable, _and_ 2. the second
sentence has been badly transcribed from the manuscript by
the typesetter. It's clearly meant to be the same word
twice, but someone who doesn't even read the Greek alphabet
presumably mucked it up.

I suspect the third word of the "stop" sentence is the same.

It _is_ exactly the same as the one in the first sentence.

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
I also suspect the word that gets rendered in the three
sentences as "xampon", "campon" and "zampon" is intended to be
"ham" with a Greek-sounding suffix (or possibly "gammon").

That, too, is exactly the same in the first and third sentence:
"zampon", more or less. In the second, it's only possible to badly
transliterate it as "khampoou".
Again, I don't know whether it's a real Greek (possibly loan-) word or
an attempt to transliterate a foreign word into Ephebian, but ISTM that
it's rather clearly related to French "jambon", i.e. ham.

Richard

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 08 Oct 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Richard Bos

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 05 Oct 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Richard Bos

=CE=9F/=CE=97 robcraine

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Compare the fourth word of that sentence with the second
word of the previous "Greek"/Ephebian sentence. It's
clear to me that 1. that word is nothing but an attempt
at transliterating "sandwich" into Greek letters, and
I've no idea whether that leads to a halfway decent
Greek word for sandwich but it's understandable, _and_
2. the second sentence has been badly transcribed from
the manuscript by the typesetter. It's clearly meant to
be the same word twice, but someone who doesn't even
read the Greek alphabet presumably mucked it up.

I suspect the third word of the "stop" sentence is the
same.

It _is_ exactly the same as the one in the first sentence.

So it is. I thought the nu was an upsilon for some reason.

Post by Richard Bos

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
I also suspect the word that gets rendered in the three
sentences as "xampon", "campon" and "zampon" is intended
to be "ham" with a Greek-sounding suffix (or possibly
"gammon").

That, too, is exactly the same in the first and third
sentence: "zampon", more or less. In the second, it's only

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
possible to badly transliterate it as "khampoou".

I must have been distracted; I could have sworn the first
letter was a xi in the first one. I also made the upsilon/nu
mistake again for the second iteration, only this time I
thought they'd got it right when they hadn't...

Post by Richard Bos
Again, I don't know whether it's a real Greek (possibly
loan-) word or an attempt to transliterate a foreign word
into Ephebian, but ISTM that it's rather clearly related to
French "jambon", i.e. ham.

Oh, definitely, now you mantion it.

[ptosky]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 08 Oct 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Richard Bos

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 05 Oct 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Richard Bos

=CE=9F/=CE=97 robcraine

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Compare the fourth word of that sentence with the second
word of the previous "Greek"/Ephebian sentence. It's
clear to me that 1. that word is nothing but an attempt
at transliterating "sandwich" into Greek letters, and
I've no idea whether that leads to a halfway decent
Greek word for sandwich but it's understandable, _and_
2. the second sentence has been badly transcribed from
the manuscript by the typesetter. It's clearly meant to
be the same word twice, but someone who doesn't even
read the Greek alphabet presumably mucked it up.

I suspect the third word of the "stop" sentence is the
same.

It _is_ exactly the same as the one in the first sentence.

So it is. I thought the nu was an upsilon for some reason.

Post by Richard Bos

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
I also suspect the word that gets rendered in the three
sentences as "xampon", "campon" and "zampon" is intended
to be "ham" with a Greek-sounding suffix (or possibly
"gammon").

That, too, is exactly the same in the first and third
sentence: "zampon", more or less. In the second, it's only

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
possible to badly transliterate it as "khampoou".

I must have been distracted; I could have sworn the first
letter was a xi in the first one. I also made the upsilon/nu
mistake again for the second iteration, only this time I
thought they'd got it right when they hadn't...

Post by Richard Bos
Again, I don't know whether it's a real Greek (possibly
loan-) word or an attempt to transliterate a foreign word
into Ephebian, but ISTM that it's rather clearly related to
French "jambon", i.e. ham.

Oh, definitely, now you mantion it.
--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://sesoc.eusa.ed.ac.uk/
"The need to compile lists is a personality disorder,
as is the need to assert the superiority of some things
over other things."
-Jeremy Hardy

You are both right. The Greek language does not have a word for ham,
instead we have borrowed the French word. We also use the English word
sandwich for ... you know two slices of bread stuffed with things ( I
have seen half a roast chicken in one!). And the word for mustard is
actually based on the Italian word Mostarda.

You both seem to know at least the Greek alphabet. Have you studied
Greek or is it just a side effect of having a background in Science?

Dimitra (which is Greek for Demeter or for you Latin speakers Ceres)

[Richard Bos]

Post by ptosky

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 08 Oct 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Richard Bos

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Again, I don't know whether it's a real Greek (possibly
loan-) word or an attempt to transliterate a foreign word
into Ephebian, but ISTM that it's rather clearly related to
French "jambon", i.e. ham.

Oh, definitely, now you mantion it.

You are both right. The Greek language does not have a word for ham,
instead we have borrowed the French word. We also use the English word
sandwich for ... you know two slices of bread stuffed with things ( I
have seen half a roast chicken in one!). And the word for mustard is
actually based on the Italian word Mostarda.
You both seem to know at least the Greek alphabet. Have you studied
Greek or is it just a side effect of having a background in Science?

Both, and then some. I know the alphabet from science and maths, and
from an interest in Greek and Roman myths (so the Cornucopia was no
stranger) and art; and I also learnt a small bit of ancient Greek in
school. But I dropped that after a few years, and have remembered
little; and modern Greek is all Greek to me.

Post by ptosky
Dimitra (which is Greek for Demeter or for you Latin speakers Ceres)

Ah, but do you make the corn grow?

Richard

[ptosky]

Post by Richard Bos

Post by ptosky

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
The time: 08 Oct 2006. The place: alt.books.pratchett. The

Post by Richard Bos

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Again, I don't know whether it's a real Greek (possibly
loan-) word or an attempt to transliterate a foreign word
into Ephebian, but ISTM that it's rather clearly related to
French "jambon", i.e. ham.

Oh, definitely, now you mantion it.

You are both right. The Greek language does not have a word for ham,
instead we have borrowed the French word. We also use the English word
sandwich for ... you know two slices of bread stuffed with things ( I
have seen half a roast chicken in one!). And the word for mustard is
actually based on the Italian word Mostarda.
You both seem to know at least the Greek alphabet. Have you studied
Greek or is it just a side effect of having a background in Science?

Both, and then some. I know the alphabet from science and maths, and
from an interest in Greek and Roman myths (so the Cornucopia was no
stranger) and art; and I also learnt a small bit of ancient Greek in
school. But I dropped that after a few years, and have remembered
little; and modern Greek is all Greek to me.

Post by ptosky
Dimitra (which is Greek for Demeter or for you Latin speakers Ceres)

Ah, but do you make the corn grow?
Richard

Well, I have been known to make the occasional bean stalk rise.

Dimitra

[Kate]

On Fri, 14 Tishrey 5767 06:46 Richard Bos translated the ancient runes

Post by Richard Bos

Post by ptosky

Post by robcraine

Post by ptosky
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I was delighted to see my native language in a book by my favourite
author, but ... Wintersmith's Greek was all Greek to me. First of
all the inscription on the horn of plenty is missing letters and is
misspelled. I will not go into the "more ham sandwiches"
translation (May the saints protect me! Brr!).

It really is all Greek to me too... but I suspect that just as
'Latatian' is a very aproximate version of badly spelled school boy
Latin, the language used in W is not meant to be Greek... just a
language that is a bit like greek. It is never named, but presumably it
is some sort of ancient ephebian/tsortian.
What does the 'more ham sandwiches' actually translate as? it could
well have been a deliberate mis-translation.

I agree with your point on Latatian but the Greek translation is so bad
that some words are not intelligible even as misspelled Greek words.

And how does that differ from Latatian, then?

Post by ptosky
For example out of the 5 words on the translation of "more
sandwiches", 2 words are really Greek while the other 3 are just Greek
letters strung together.

Compare the fourth word of that sentence with the second word of the
previous "Greek"/Ephebian sentence. It's clear to me that 1. that word
is nothing but an attempt at transliterating "sandwich" into Greek
letters, and I've no idea whether that leads to a halfway decent Greek
word for sandwich but it's understandable, _and_ 2. the second sentence
has been badly transcribed from the manuscript by the typesetter. It's
clearly meant to be the same word twice, but someone who doesn't even
read the Greek alphabet presumably mucked it up.
What I want to know is, how does the "Russian" sentence on the first
line of page 302 compare to real Russian?
Richard

The first word is real Russian, the other isn't! CHOBA means afresh or anew
(pronounced SNOVA), the other is just letters strung together to look good!
I mean, who reads Cyrillic except Russians and pedantic idiots ike me who
own Russian dictionaries? :-)

I'd be curious to see how that would be translated in the Russian edition of
W.

Kate

[Joe Bednorz]

Post by Kate
On Fri, 14 Tishrey 5767 06:46 Richard Bos translated the ancient runes

Post by Richard Bos

Post by ptosky

Post by robcraine

Post by ptosky
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I was delighted to see my native language in a book by my favourite
author, but ... Wintersmith's Greek was all Greek to me. First of
all the inscription on the horn of plenty is missing letters and is
misspelled. I will not go into the "more ham sandwiches"
translation (May the saints protect me! Brr!).

It really is all Greek to me too... but I suspect that just as
'Latatian' is a very aproximate version of badly spelled school boy
Latin, the language used in W is not meant to be Greek... just a
language that is a bit like greek. It is never named, but presumably it
is some sort of ancient ephebian/tsortian.
What does the 'more ham sandwiches' actually translate as? it could
well have been a deliberate mis-translation.

I agree with your point on Latatian but the Greek translation is so bad
that some words are not intelligible even as misspelled Greek words.

And how does that differ from Latatian, then?

Post by ptosky
For example out of the 5 words on the translation of "more
sandwiches", 2 words are really Greek while the other 3 are just Greek
letters strung together.

Compare the fourth word of that sentence with the second word of the
previous "Greek"/Ephebian sentence. It's clear to me that 1. that word
is nothing but an attempt at transliterating "sandwich" into Greek
letters, and I've no idea whether that leads to a halfway decent Greek
word for sandwich but it's understandable, _and_ 2. the second sentence
has been badly transcribed from the manuscript by the typesetter. It's
clearly meant to be the same word twice, but someone who doesn't even
read the Greek alphabet presumably mucked it up.
What I want to know is, how does the "Russian" sentence on the first
line of page 302 compare to real Russian?
Richard

The first word is real Russian, the other isn't! CHOBA means afresh or anew
(pronounced SNOVA), the other is just letters strung together to look good!
I mean, who reads Cyrillic except Russians and pedantic idiots ike me who
own Russian dictionaries? :-)

<http://home.freeuk.net/russica2/>
--
"I think that's the other reason I love the Discworld stories. One time
the story is all "myffy" when suddenly you stumble across the joke and
your head hits the next available wall while at another bit you laugh at
a joke or situation and almost swallow your tongue when you think about
it for a second longer." - Volker Hetzer in abp

Links to Gigabytes of Free Online SF Books: <http://www.mindspring.com/~jbednorz/Free/>

All the Best, Joe Bednorz

[Kate]

On Mon, 17 Tishrey 5767 01:08 Joe Bednorz translated the ancient runes

Post by Joe Bednorz
<http://home.freeuk.net/russica2/>

Spasebo, tovarich! Added to bookmarks.

Kate

[Richard Bos]

Post by Kate
On Fri, 14 Tishrey 5767 06:46 Richard Bos translated the ancient runes

Post by Richard Bos

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What I want to know is, how does the "Russian" sentence on the first
line of page 302 compare to real Russian?

The first word is real Russian, the other isn't! CHOBA means afresh or anew
(pronounced SNOVA),

Ah, right. So nothing to do with English "snow", but looking
treacherously like it. I wonder whether that was intentional.

Post by Kate
I mean, who reads Cyrillic except Russians and pedantic idiots ike me who
own Russian dictionaries? :-)

Well, me. My problem is that I can read Cyrillic _letters_ quite well,
but Russian _words_ not at all.

Richard

[Lengra]

Hi, folks!
The phrase is in Russian, both words are real :)
"Pokholodalo" is a verb form, it comes from the word "kholod", which is
"cold"/"coldness".