Going back to an earlier thread (nationality of twoflower) poss spoiler Int Times.

[Wonder]

Okay here goes.....in an earlier thread I stated Twoflower was probably
oriental in origin possibly Chinese...ish...there were a lot of responses
mostly saying he wasnt. I turned my attentions to re-reading Interesting
Times (which anyone who has read this will be aware it takes place in the
homeland of Twoflower). Now the artwork on the book by Josh Kirby shows what
appears to be the Great Wall of China. The book itself contains references
to Barking Dogs (cannons).....Lord Hong....Water Buffaloes.....Lord
Tang....Ghenghiz Cohen......Hundred year old eggs....Rice
cakes....Disembowel-Meself-Honourably and his friend Five Tongs who lives in
the Street of Heavens...the city of HungHung...the Forbidden City, a written
language of seven thousand letters and a S'ang Dynasty vase.....the entire
book oozes far east. I maintain my assertion that Twoflower is of Asian
origin and as such should have been played by someone like Jackie Chan.

Thank You

Craig.

[Free Lunch]

On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 19:05:25 GMT, in alt.books.pratchett

Post by Wonder
Okay here goes.....in an earlier thread I stated Twoflower was probably
oriental in origin possibly Chinese...ish...there were a lot of responses
mostly saying he wasnt. I turned my attentions to re-reading Interesting
Times (which anyone who has read this will be aware it takes place in the
homeland of Twoflower). Now the artwork on the book by Josh Kirby shows what
appears to be the Great Wall of China. The book itself contains references
to Barking Dogs (cannons).....Lord Hong....Water Buffaloes.....Lord
Tang....Ghenghiz Cohen......Hundred year old eggs....Rice
cakes....Disembowel-Meself-Honourably and his friend Five Tongs who lives in
the Street of Heavens...the city of HungHung...the Forbidden City, a written
language of seven thousand letters and a S'ang Dynasty vase.....the entire
book oozes far east. I maintain my assertion that Twoflower is of Asian
origin and as such should have been played by someone like Jackie Chan.

While I would agree with your analysis that it's possible to consider
Twoflower East Asian, Mr. Chan doesn't seem to have enough obliviousness
to fit the way that Twoflowers wanders through the world. At least
initially, Twoflowers was just Not-Rincewind. While Rincewind was on
guard at all times, it did him no good -- something bad always happened.
Twoflowers was just the opposite, in behavior and result.

[eir_de_scania]

Post by Wonder
Okay here goes.....in an earlier thread I stated Twoflower was probably
oriental in origin possibly Chinese...ish...there were a lot of responses
mostly saying he wasnt. [-----]
Craig.

He's not. Towflower is from the Counterwight Continent on Discworld
while China is located to Roundworld. That the CC & China is so very
similar is just a coincidence. Or perhaps not. It probably has to do
with Quantum. :-)

[Geoff Field]

Post by eir_de_scania

Post by Wonder
Okay here goes.....in an earlier thread I stated Twoflower was probably
oriental in origin possibly Chinese...ish...there were a lot of responses
mostly saying he wasnt. [-----]
Craig.

He's not. Towflower is from the Counterwight Continent on Discworld
while China is located to Roundworld. That the CC & China is so very
similar is just a coincidence. Or perhaps not. It probably has to do
with Quantum. :-)

Just like TLC is not about Australia, but just happens to be sort of
Australian.

Geoff

[Reader in Invisible Writings]

Post by eir_de_scania

Post by Wonder
Okay here goes.....in an earlier thread I stated Twoflower was probably
oriental in origin possibly Chinese...ish...there were a lot of responses
mostly saying he wasnt. [-----]
Craig.

He's not. Towflower is from the Counterwight Continent on Discworld
while China is located to Roundworld. That the CC & China is so very
similar is just a coincidence. Or perhaps not. It probably has to do
with Quantum. :-)

I always thought that Agetean Empire, Grand Visir, Two Flower, Nine
Turning Mirrors, Pretending we don't exist etc. sounded Asiatic if not
Chinese, but certainly not American.

[Rhiannon_s]

Post by Reader in Invisible Writings

Post by eir_de_scania

Post by Wonder
Okay here goes.....in an earlier thread I stated Twoflower was probably
oriental in origin possibly Chinese...ish...there were a lot of responses
mostly saying he wasnt. [-----]
Craig.

He's not. Towflower is from the Counterwight Continent on Discworld
while China is located to Roundworld. That the CC & China is so very
similar is just a coincidence. Or perhaps not. It probably has to do
with Quantum. :-)

I always thought that Agetean Empire, Grand Visir, Two Flower, Nine
Turning Mirrors, Pretending we don't exist etc. sounded Asiatic if not
Chinese, but certainly not American.

Project for the new american century, media advisor/vice-president,
john-bob-joe walton, isolationist to the point of freedom fries... Yep, no
correlation at all :o)

--
Rhiannon_s
Once you accept "because" as a valid reason the world becomes a much simpler
place.

[James Kuyper Jr.]

...

Post by Rhiannon_s

Post by Reader in Invisible Writings
I always thought that Agetean Empire, Grand Visir, Two Flower, Nine
Turning Mirrors, Pretending we don't exist etc. sounded Asiatic if not
Chinese, but certainly not American.

Project for the new american century, media advisor/vice-president,
john-bob-joe walton, isolationist to the point of freedom fries... Yep, no
correlation at all :o)

You've provided excellent support for the idea that the Counterweight
continent was supposed to be understood as Asian-ish. Yet your final
comment implies that you think you've refuted it. It's all a matter of
style - and everything you mention as American parallels to the
Counterweight Continent has a different style. If he'd been called a
Vice President rather than a Grand Vizier, it most certainly would have
felt less like Asia, and more like America.

And while both Asia and the US are known for their isolationists,
there's a definite difference in style between the way they were
isolationist, though it's complicated to describe the difference.

Japan is famous for a period of isolationism that was nearly total, with
almost no immigration or emigration, and very restricted trade, just
like the Agatean Empire. America has always had notoriously porous
borders, both with respect to immigration and trade, regardless of
whatever laws we may have attempted to enforce to the contrary.

Japan's isolation and China's sense of itself as the "Middle Kingdom"
were both built on a concept that they were absolutely culturally
superior to everyone else. America, as a European colony, could never
see itself in quite that same light. There have certainly been many
Americans who felt that America was immensely better than our European
forebears; but even they have been well aware of the fact that American
culture derived from European culture, and anyone with even an
elementary education has been taught to trace our cultural ancestry back
through Rome, Greece, Egypt, Israel, and Babylonia. When China looks
back into its cultural ancestry, it just sees older versions of China.
The Agatean Empire's sense of cultural superiority feels a lot more
Chinese in style, than American.

[Reader in Invisible Writings]

Post by James Kuyper Jr.
...

Post by Rhiannon_s

Post by Reader in Invisible Writings
I always thought that Agetean Empire, Grand Visir, Two Flower, Nine
Turning Mirrors, Pretending we don't exist etc. sounded Asiatic if not
Chinese, but certainly not American.

Project for the new american century, media advisor/vice-president,
john-bob-joe walton, isolationist to the point of freedom fries...
Yep, no
correlation at all :o)

You've provided excellent support for the idea that the Counterweight
continent was supposed to be understood as Asian-ish. Yet your final
comment implies that you think you've refuted it. It's all a matter of
style - and everything you mention as American parallels to the
Counterweight Continent has a different style. If he'd been called a
Vice President rather than a Grand Vizier, it most certainly would have
felt less like Asia, and more like America.
And while both Asia and the US are known for their isolationists,
there's a definite difference in style between the way they were
isolationist, though it's complicated to describe the difference.
Japan is famous for a period of isolationism that was nearly total, with
almost no immigration or emigration, and very restricted trade, just
like the Agatean Empire. America has always had notoriously porous
borders, both with respect to immigration and trade, regardless of
whatever laws we may have attempted to enforce to the contrary.
Japan's isolation and China's sense of itself as the "Middle Kingdom"
were both built on a concept that they were absolutely culturally
superior to everyone else. America, as a European colony, could never
see itself in quite that same light. There have certainly been many
Americans who felt that America was immensely better than our European
forebears; but even they have been well aware of the fact that American
culture derived from European culture, and anyone with even an
elementary education has been taught to trace our cultural ancestry back
through Rome, Greece, Egypt, Israel, and Babylonia. When China looks
back into its cultural ancestry, it just sees older versions of China.
The Agatean Empire's sense of cultural superiority feels a lot more
Chinese in style, than American.

Also, me again, the Agetean Empire is described as 'Ancient and cruel'
by the (at that point nameless) Patrician, hardly phrases that can be
used (well ancient anyway) of the good old USofA. In addition, both
China and Japan have had periods when the 'trading' ports were very few
(though not just one, but getting that way).

[Emma Anne]

Post by Reader in Invisible Writings
Also, me again, the Agetean Empire is described as 'Ancient and cruel'
by the (at that point nameless) Patrician, hardly phrases that can be
used (well ancient anyway) of the good old USofA.

Yeah. Cruel isn't quite right either. Thuggish or overbearing would be
more the right flavor.

[Lesley Weston]

in article 5bqMi.551$***@trnddc08, James Kuyper Jr. at
***@verizon.net wrote on 02/10/2007 4:45 AM:

<snip>

Post by James Kuyper Jr.
The Agatean Empire's sense of cultural superiority feels a lot more
Chinese in style, than American.

I can't see it as American at all, I agree, but there are quite a few
references to Arabic cultures as well as Oriental ones. Isn't it just a
handy collection of all Furrin Parts so foreign to the British that they're
not even the equivalent of European-type cultures? Except I don't think TP
included Africa, BICBW.

[Kristian Damm Jensen]

Post by Lesley Weston
<snip>

Post by James Kuyper Jr.
The Agatean Empire's sense of cultural superiority feels a lot more
Chinese in style, than American.

I can't see it as American at all, I agree, but there are quite a few
references to Arabic cultures as well as Oriental ones.

I am not saying you are wrong, but I can't remember a single reference to
Arabic Culture. Could you provide some examples?

<snip>

[Reader in Invisible Writings]

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen

Post by Lesley Weston
<snip>

Post by James Kuyper Jr.
The Agatean Empire's sense of cultural superiority feels a lot more
Chinese in style, than American.

I can't see it as American at all, I agree, but there are quite a few
references to Arabic cultures as well as Oriental ones.

I am not saying you are wrong, but I can't remember a single reference to
Arabic Culture. Could you provide some examples?
<snip>

Vizier (to my British ear) is more Arabic than Oriental, c.f. Disney's
Aladdin. Also (despite the clear description of TwoFlower as
scrawny/skinny?) my mind always supplies the image of Aladdin's
stepfather (I have a suddnen mental block on his and the heroin's
names), if for no other reason than the behaviour.

[Sabremeister Brian]

Post by Reader in Invisible Writings

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen

Post by Lesley Weston
<snip>

Post by James Kuyper Jr.
The Agatean Empire's sense of cultural superiority feels a lot more
Chinese in style, than American.

I can't see it as American at all, I agree, but there are quite a
few references to Arabic cultures as well as Oriental ones.

I am not saying you are wrong, but I can't remember a single
reference to Arabic Culture. Could you provide some examples?
<snip>

Vizier (to my British ear) is more Arabic than Oriental, c.f.
Disney's
Aladdin. Also (despite the clear description of TwoFlower as
scrawny/skinny?) my mind always supplies the image of Aladdin's
stepfather (I have a suddnen mental block on his and the heroin's
names)

Abanazar and Jasmine, usually.

Post by Reader in Invisible Writings
, if for no other reason than the behaviour.

Grand Vizier is indeed an Arabic-world title. IIRC, it was a post
similar to a provincial governor in Western European empires/kingdoms,
common among the North African (and Iberian peninsular) caliphates,
spreading eastward to the Arabian peninsular and the Ottoman empire.

However, the title is the only Arabic thing about it - manipulative
and controlling senior members of government have been and are endemic
throughout the world and history. Grand Vizier just sounds more
sinister than, for example, Spin Doctor.

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

'Twas on the 05 Oct 2007, that "Sabremeister Brian"

In a speech called

Post by Reader in Invisible Writings

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen

Post by Lesley Weston
<snip>

Post by James Kuyper Jr.
The Agatean Empire's sense of cultural superiority
feels a lot more
Chinese in style, than American.

I can't see it as American at all, I agree, but there
are quite a few references to Arabic cultures as well as
Oriental ones.

I am not saying you are wrong, but I can't remember a
single reference to Arabic Culture. Could you provide
some examples?
<snip>

Vizier (to my British ear) is more Arabic than Oriental,

Grand Vizier is indeed an Arabic-world title. IIRC, it was
a post similar to a provincial governor in Western European
empires/kingdoms, common among the North African (and
Iberian peninsular) caliphates, spreading eastward to the
Arabian peninsular and the Ottoman empire.
However, the title is the only Arabic thing about it -
manipulative and controlling senior members of government
have been and are endemic throughout the world and history.
Grand Vizier just sounds more sinister than, for example,
Spin Doctor.

Really? Marginally so, perhaps, but the phrase "Spin Doctor"
has aquired a lot of baggage in its short little life.

In any case, the title is what we're discussing; not whether
it's Arabic to have a manipulative and controlling government
advisor, but whether it's Arabic to have a Grand Vizier.
There's nothing particularly Arabic about a crowded
marketplace, but when Sourcery calls one the "soak", it's
instantly clear where Al-Khali is supposed to be.

The roughly equivilent Chinese word, according to Wikipedia,
would be Cheng Xiang, translated as Chancellor. And I don't
think the brief mention Nine-Turning-Mirrors[1] gets in TCOM
would have a vast shift of understood meaning if he'd been
called the Chancellor.

[1]On the subject of different RW origins for elements of
Agatea, the APF says that Pterry says the naming convention is
probably Mayan.

[Lesley Weston]

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen

Post by Lesley Weston
<snip>

Post by James Kuyper Jr.
The Agatean Empire's sense of cultural superiority feels a lot more
Chinese in style, than American.

I can't see it as American at all, I agree, but there are quite a few
references to Arabic cultures as well as Oriental ones.

I am not saying you are wrong, but I can't remember a single reference to
Arabic Culture. Could you provide some examples?

Grand Vizier, for a start. I'm a bit hazy about it all, but I think there
are references in at least one of the books to camel-racing, Minarets and
other Arabic-type things.

[Wonder]

The book your thinking of is Jingo :)

Post by Lesley Weston

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
I am not saying you are wrong, but I can't remember a single reference to
Arabic Culture. Could you provide some examples?

Grand Vizier, for a start. I'm a bit hazy about it all, but I think there
are references in at least one of the books to camel-racing, Minarets and
other Arabic-type things.
--
Lesley Weston.
Brightly_coloured_blob is real, but I don't often check even the few bits
that get through Yahoo's filters. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca,
changing spelling and spacing as required.

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

Post by Wonder
Okay here goes.....in an earlier thread I stated Twoflower
was probably oriental in origin possibly
Chinese...ish...there were a lot of responses mostly saying
he wasnt.

Not that I recall. There was a lot of discussion saying that
Rincewind was able to pass as Agatean in IT and therefore they
didn't all *look* Chinese, and then it wandered off into a
discussion of what "Oriental" meant.

There's certainly no question that the Agatean Empire is based
on Imperial China/Japan.

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

'Twas on the 28 Sep 2007, that I

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
There was a lot of discussion saying
that Rincewind was able to pass as Agatean in IT and
therefore they didn't all *look* Chinese,

Although, now I think about it, the main point of that scene
was that as long as Rinso was dressed as a peasant, nobody
actually looked at him properly, so that doesn't prove
anything.

[Mike Stevens]

Post by Wonder
Okay here goes.....in an earlier thread I stated Twoflower was
probably oriental in origin possibly Chinese...ish...there were a lot
of responses mostly saying he wasnt. I turned my attentions to
re-reading Interesting Times (which anyone who has read this will be
aware it takes place in the homeland of Twoflower). Now the artwork
on the book by Josh Kirby shows what appears to be the Great Wall of
China. The book itself contains references to Barking Dogs
(cannons).....Lord Hong....Water Buffaloes.....Lord Tang....Ghenghiz
Cohen......Hundred year old eggs....Rice
cakes....Disembowel-Meself-Honourably and his friend Five Tongs who
lives in the Street of Heavens...the city of HungHung...the Forbidden
City, a written language of seven thousand letters and a S'ang
Dynasty vase.....the entire book oozes far east. I maintain my
assertion that Twoflower is of Asian origin and as such should have
been played by someone like Jackie Chan.

But that's all a long way after the original appearance of Twoflower. When
I first read The Colour of Magic, some years before Interesting Times was
written, the image that came to my mind was Woody Allen (as he was then).

[Carsten Pedersen]

Post by Wonder
Okay here goes.....in an earlier thread I stated Twoflower was probably
oriental in origin possibly Chinese...ish...there were a lot of responses
mostly saying he wasnt.

Most responses said that *in TCOM* there is no indication that
Twoflower is Chinese. Rather, he's the arch typical Tourist.

Post by Wonder
I turned my attentions to re-reading Interesting
Times (which anyone who has read this will be aware it takes place in the
homeland of Twoflower).

...and was written some 10 years after TCOM. It's only then that we
find out about the RW (dare I say it?) oriental (I did!) parallels.

[Graycat]

Post by Carsten Pedersen

Post by Wonder
Okay here goes.....in an earlier thread I stated Twoflower was probably
oriental in origin possibly Chinese...ish...there were a lot of responses
mostly saying he wasnt.

Most responses said that *in TCOM* there is no indication that
Twoflower is Chinese. Rather, he's the arch typical Tourist.

Post by Wonder
I turned my attentions to re-reading Interesting
Times (which anyone who has read this will be aware it takes place in the
homeland of Twoflower).

...and was written some 10 years after TCOM. It's only then that we
find out about the RW (dare I say it?) oriental (I did!) parallels.

Not really - at least not me. I associated Twoflower's camera
behaviour with japanese tourists right from the start, and I'm pretty
sure there were other things too even in the TCOM and TLF that made me
think he was asianish.

[Mike Stevens]

Post by Graycat
Not really - at least not me. I associated Twoflower's camera
behaviour with japanese tourists right from the start, and I'm pretty
sure there were other things too even in the TCOM and TLF that made me
think he was asianish.

I didn't make that association when I first read the book, possibly because
there were many more American tourists in London at that time than Japanese,
many with the camera habits described. And to a UK reader coming across the
name Counterweight Continent for the first time, the Americas is the analogy
that springs to mind.

[Winterbay]

Post by Mike Stevens

Post by Graycat
Not really - at least not me. I associated Twoflower's camera
behaviour with japanese tourists right from the start, and I'm pretty
sure there were other things too even in the TCOM and TLF that made me
think he was asianish.

I didn't make that association when I first read the book, possibly because
there were many more American tourists in London at that time than Japanese,
many with the camera habits described. And to a UK reader coming across the
name Counterweight Continent for the first time, the Americas is the analogy
that springs to mind.

Interesting. To me as a Swede I think of the asian continent in that
context and I've never connected Americans with cameras. All I've seen
here have had huge hats and the Asians still seem to have the monopoly
on extensive overuse of cameras.

/Winterbay

[Mike Stevens]

Post by Winterbay

Post by Mike Stevens

Post by Graycat
Not really - at least not me. I associated Twoflower's camera
behaviour with japanese tourists right from the start, and I'm
pretty sure there were other things too even in the TCOM and TLF
that made me think he was asianish.

I didn't make that association when I first read the book, possibly
because there were many more American tourists in London at that
time than Japanese, many with the camera habits described. And to a
UK reader coming across the name Counterweight Continent for the
first time, the Americas is the analogy that springs to mind.

Interesting. To me as a Swede I think of the asian continent in that
context and I've never connected Americans with cameras. All I've seen
here have had huge hats and the Asians still seem to have the monopoly
on extensive overuse of cameras.

Nowadays in London I'd agree with you. But 25 years ago it was different.

[Lesley Weston]

Post by Mike Stevens

Post by Graycat
Not really - at least not me. I associated Twoflower's camera
behaviour with japanese tourists right from the start, and I'm pretty
sure there were other things too even in the TCOM and TLF that made me
think he was asianish.

I didn't make that association when I first read the book, possibly because
there were many more American tourists in London at that time than Japanese,
many with the camera habits described. And to a UK reader coming across the
name Counterweight Continent for the first time, the Americas is the analogy
that springs to mind.

But it's Australia and New Zealand that are called the Antipodes, which is a
better analogy to Counterweight IMO. Digging through the Earth to China is a
North American concept, where the UK would say Australia, so I still don't
understand why TP named it so, unless it was simple courtesy because his
North American sales had started picking up at last just about then.

[Winterbay]

Post by Lesley Weston

Post by Mike Stevens

Post by Graycat
Not really - at least not me. I associated Twoflower's camera
behaviour with japanese tourists right from the start, and I'm pretty
sure there were other things too even in the TCOM and TLF that made me
think he was asianish.

I didn't make that association when I first read the book, possibly because
there were many more American tourists in London at that time than Japanese,
many with the camera habits described. And to a UK reader coming across the
name Counterweight Continent for the first time, the Americas is the analogy
that springs to mind.

But it's Australia and New Zealand that are called the Antipodes, which is a
better analogy to Counterweight IMO. Digging through the Earth to China is a
North American concept, where the UK would say Australia, so I still don't
understand why TP named it so, unless it was simple courtesy because his
North American sales had started picking up at last just about then.

In Sweden if you dig a hole through the earth you end up in China at
least according the idiomatic expression. SO it' snot only North America :)

/Winterbay

[Nigel Stapley]

Post by Lesley Weston

Post by Mike Stevens

Post by Graycat
Not really - at least not me. I associated Twoflower's camera
behaviour with japanese tourists right from the start, and I'm pretty
sure there were other things too even in the TCOM and TLF that made me
think he was asianish.

I didn't make that association when I first read the book, possibly because
there were many more American tourists in London at that time than Japanese,
many with the camera habits described. And to a UK reader coming across the
name Counterweight Continent for the first time, the Americas is the analogy
that springs to mind.

But it's Australia and New Zealand that are called the Antipodes, which is a
better analogy to Counterweight IMO. Digging through the Earth to China is a
North American concept, where the UK would say Australia, so I still don't
understand why TP named it so, unless it was simple courtesy because his
North American sales had started picking up at last just about then.

yes, but if you dig right through DW, you just hit elephant. Or turtle.

[Free Lunch]

On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 23:57:59 +0100, in alt.books.pratchett

Post by Nigel Stapley

Post by Lesley Weston

Post by Mike Stevens

Post by Graycat
Not really - at least not me. I associated Twoflower's camera
behaviour with japanese tourists right from the start, and I'm pretty
sure there were other things too even in the TCOM and TLF that made me
think he was asianish.

I didn't make that association when I first read the book, possibly because
there were many more American tourists in London at that time than Japanese,
many with the camera habits described. And to a UK reader coming across the
name Counterweight Continent for the first time, the Americas is the analogy
that springs to mind.

But it's Australia and New Zealand that are called the Antipodes, which is a
better analogy to Counterweight IMO. Digging through the Earth to China is a
North American concept, where the UK would say Australia, so I still don't
understand why TP named it so, unless it was simple courtesy because his
North American sales had started picking up at last just about then.

yes, but if you dig right through DW, you just hit elephant. Or turtle.

But the counterweight there keeps things balanced on the elephants.

Here it's a bit more confusing -- though I suppose the Americas would be
the counterweight to Eurasia and Africa by approximation.

[Alec Cawley]

Post by Lesley Weston

Post by Mike Stevens

Post by Graycat
Not really - at least not me. I associated Twoflower's camera
behaviour with japanese tourists right from the start, and I'm pretty
sure there were other things too even in the TCOM and TLF that made me
think he was asianish.

I didn't make that association when I first read the book, possibly because
there were many more American tourists in London at that time than Japanese,
many with the camera habits described. And to a UK reader coming across the
name Counterweight Continent for the first time, the Americas is the analogy
that springs to mind.

But it's Australia and New Zealand that are called the Antipodes, which is a
better analogy to Counterweight IMO. Digging through the Earth to China is a
North American concept, where the UK would say Australia, so I still don't
understand why TP named it so, unless it was simple courtesy because his
North American sales had started picking up at last just about then.

I don't think Terry is as literalistic as that. Possibly he wanted a
social counterweight, tightly regulated compared to A-M's relative
anarchy, a single country compared to the A-M region's fragmentation.
More likely, he just wanted to set a story in the Aurient.

[Richard Eney]

Post by Alec Cawley

Post by Lesley Weston

Post by Mike Stevens

Post by Graycat
Not really - at least not me. I associated Twoflower's camera
behaviour with japanese tourists right from the start, and I'm pretty
sure there were other things too even in the TCOM and TLF that made me
think he was asianish.

I didn't make that association when I first read the book, possibly because
there were many more American tourists in London at that time than Japanese,
many with the camera habits described. And to a UK reader coming across the
name Counterweight Continent for the first time, the Americas is the analogy
that springs to mind.

But it's Australia and New Zealand that are called the Antipodes, which is a
better analogy to Counterweight IMO. Digging through the Earth to China is a
North American concept, where the UK would say Australia, so I still don't
understand why TP named it so, unless it was simple courtesy because his
North American sales had started picking up at last just about then.

I don't think Terry is as literalistic as that. Possibly he wanted a
social counterweight, tightly regulated compared to A-M's relative
anarchy, a single country compared to the A-M region's fragmentation.
More likely, he just wanted to set a story in the Aurient.

The amount of gold in the Counterweight Continent may be significant.
25 years ago the gold was in the Americas, now it's shifting. The
correlation "gold ==> tourist" still works.

But Twoflower speaks a language that isn't common in the Agatean Empire
either. He's probably considered slightly foreign in Hunghung if they
had the concept of "foreign". They have the concept of "us versus demons"
which means Twoflower is "us", and so is Rincewind. He's just "us with
a funny accent."

When the world is divided into "us" and "demons", anyone looking human
is probably considered "us" even if it's "despicable one of us who is
about to be executed". Minor details of appearance, such as looking like
a Brown Islander or an Ankh-Morporkian, are unworthy of comment.

=Tamar

[v$af$ ("ppint. at IMT")]

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Alec Cawley

Post by Lesley Weston

Post by Mike Stevens

Post by Graycat
Not really - at least not me. I associated Twoflower's camera
behaviour with japanese tourists right from the start, and I'm
pretty sure there were other things too even in the TCOM and TLF
that made me think he was asianish.

I didn't make that association when I first read the book, possibly
because there were many more American tourists in London at that
time than Japanese, many with the camera habits described. And to
a UK reader coming across the name Counterweight Continent for the
first time, the Americas is the analogy that springs to mind.

But it's Australia and New Zealand that are called the Antipodes,
which is a better analogy to Counterweight IMO. Digging through the
Earth to China is a North American concept, where the UK would say
Australia, so I still don't understand why TP named it so, unless it
was simple courtesy because his North American sales had started
picking up at last just about then.

I don't think Terry is as literalistic as that. Possibly he wanted a
social counterweight, tightly regulated compared to A-M's relative
anarchy, a single country compared to the A-M region's fragmentation.
More likely, he just wanted to set a story in the Aurient.

- well, what else does a classical barbarian horde with
a decent dose of ambition _do_, but invade the greatest
empire of the day?

- remember that - until the mongols - the barbarians that
invaded the west/western roman empire were the *losers*
who had been driven off the eurasian steppes by barbarian
hordes bigger & badder than they - or by lesser barbarian
hordes *still* bigger and badder than they, just less so
than the horde pushing _them_...

Post by Richard Eney
The amount of gold in the Counterweight Continent may be significant.

- yes, indeed!

- both for practical discological reasons (so as to not
require thaumatismatics of the turtle, where none should
be needed); and also, to lure cohen & cohnpadres thither;

Post by Richard Eney
25 years ago the gold was in the Americas, now it's shifting.

- hmm? i thought *most* of the gold - and silver - of el-
dorado had been drained out of the americas long since -
to china, india & the east indies via spain and amsterdam,
mostly... [a]

Post by Richard Eney
The correlation "gold ==> tourist" still works.

- gold, silver, cupro-nickel, *cash* from the maldives...

Post by Richard Eney
But Twoflower speaks a language that isn't common in the Agatean Empire
either. He's probably considered slightly foreign in Hunghung if they
had the concept of "foreign". They have the concept of "us versus demons"
which means Twoflower is "us", and so is Rincewind. He's just "us with
a funny accent."

- um, not necessarily; he may simply be regarded as extremely
learned - by anyone who's bothered to get to know him well e-
nough; "extremely learned in obscure languages no-one in their
right mind bothers with - make the barbarians speak agatean!"
*and* "really dull conscientious worker, disappears completely
on his vacations - must be at least slightly mad, choosing to
go anywhere but the traditional tourist resorts!"

- everyone else seems to've regard him as the latter - if they
noticed him at all. it wasn't until he made public his holiday
memoirs that his existence made a noticeable ripple within the
empire.

Post by Richard Eney
When the world is divided into "us" and "demons", anyone looking human
is probably considered "us" even if it's "despicable one of us who is
about to be executed". Minor details of appearance, such as looking like
a Brown Islander or an Ankh-Morporkian, are unworthy of comment.

- um; "yes, but;" although the classic barbarian hordes from
the sarmatians through the huns, turks & mongols seem to have
made no distinction upon racial or religious grounds, least-
ways as regards membership of the horde by conquered peoples
who adopted its ways and identified with it, the civilised
han chinese certainly did and do - as did the manchurians [c]

- but the agataean empire isn't *meant* to be china, japan,
acheh, cham, hawai'i, merkia or anywhere else on this great
ball of confusion, of course - it just has some qualities of
any or all of them, as may've been convenient, seemed to fit
and felt right to terry - and whilst the argument about the
precise location of aunty dipodes & family may have a partic-
lar sting to some on this spherical world, the significance
of the counterweight continent *and* its being largely made
of gold has rather different meaning, upon the _disc_world.

- don't you think?

- love, a still somewhat shocked ppint.
(see http://www.i-m-t.demon.co.uk/diary.htm if interested)
[the address from which this was posted bounces e-mail;
please change the "f" to a "g" and drop the "v" if you
wish to cc. or e-mail me.]

[a] - though a fair amount of merkin gold'll likely've been
drained direct to the far east, from ports, such as
san francisco [b]

[b] - you have to add shipping both ways to then-current
chinese laundries' prices; and the equatorial counter-
current is at best irregular and unreliable upon, if
not downright mythological...

[c] - i'm not at all sure that the classic japanese distint-
ion should be regarded as *racial* discrimination -
there're arguably adequate grounds for classifying it
as discrimination by _species_ [d]

[d] - albeit ill-foundedly so; there are other occurrances
of this, elsewhen & elsewhere, so it's at least a de-
bateable point

[Kristian Damm Jensen]

Post by Carsten Pedersen

Post by Wonder
Okay here goes.....in an earlier thread I stated Twoflower was
probably oriental in origin possibly Chinese...ish...there were a
lot of responses mostly saying he wasnt.

Most responses said that *in TCOM* there is no indication that
Twoflower is Chinese. Rather, he's the arch typical Tourist.

Except that we are treated to a few scenes from the court on the
Counterweight Continent, which to me seems very oriental (japanese or
chinese) in style.

<snip>

[Gary R. Schmidt]

Kristian Damm Jensen wrote:
[SNIP]

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen
Except that we are treated to a few scenes from the court on the
Counterweight Continent, which to me seems very oriental (japanese or
chinese) in style.

Mikado[1], *definitely* Mikado.

Cheers,
Gary B-)

1 - Which, of course, was a melange of China and Japan as viewed from afar.

[Reader in Invisible Writings]

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen

Post by Carsten Pedersen

Post by Wonder
Okay here goes.....in an earlier thread I stated Twoflower was
probably oriental in origin possibly Chinese...ish...there were a
lot of responses mostly saying he wasnt.

Most responses said that *in TCOM* there is no indication that
Twoflower is Chinese. Rather, he's the arch typical Tourist.

Except that we are treated to a few scenes from the court on the
Counterweight Continent, which to me seems very oriental (japanese or
chinese) in style.
<snip>

That is from a later book (Mort IIRC) and so is not proof that TwoFlower
was, at the time COM was written, from a land like unto China/Japan.
Phases like 'ancient and cruel' 'Grand Visir' 'Boy Emperor' 'people
should remain where they are put' 'AM has nothing that they want - and
they have nothing that AM can afford' are evidence of something like
Imperial Japan or China than America which is not ancient, does not have
boy rulers, does not restrict citizens movements, encourages trade (well
exports at least [and imports that aren't from abroad ;-) ]). Also,
saying TwoFlower must be American 'cause he acts like American Tourists
do does not fit with him being number 1 in a sample of 1, all other
wandering visitors being Merchants, Seamen, Spies, Heroes, Invaders or
any combination of the above.

[Richard Eney]

Post by Reader in Invisible Writings

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen

Post by Carsten Pedersen

Post by Wonder
Okay here goes.....in an earlier thread I stated Twoflower was
probably oriental in origin possibly Chinese...ish...there were a
lot of responses mostly saying he wasnt.

Most responses said that *in TCOM* there is no indication that
Twoflower is Chinese. Rather, he's the arch typical Tourist.

Except that we are treated to a few scenes from the court on the
Counterweight Continent, which to me seems very oriental (japanese or
chinese) in style.
<snip>

That is from a later book (Mort IIRC) and so is not proof that TwoFlower
was, at the time COM was written, from a land like unto China/Japan.

The court was, but TCoM did give some indications. The Emperor of the
Agatean Empire contacted the Patrician about the tourist, and the
Patrician ordered Rincewind to be sure that Twoflower gave a good
report of Ankh-Morpork. Then the next message arrived, from Nine
Turning Mirrors, the Grand Vizier, and the Patrician agreed that
people ought to stay where they were put. Etc. It's all in the
first 40-odd pages of TCoM.

Post by Reader in Invisible Writings
Phases like 'ancient and cruel' 'Grand Visir' 'Boy Emperor' 'people
should remain where they are put' 'AM has nothing that they want - and
they have nothing that AM can afford' are evidence of something like
Imperial Japan or China

All from TCoM.

When Rincewind is looking for Twoflower, he only asks "where is the
rich foreigner" - no details of a visibly different ethnic type are
given. So either people of Auriental appearance are common in A-M,
which could be true (in later books it is said that a few
wild-eyed refugees arrive and settle in as craftsmen), or Twoflower
looks just like the major ethnic groups already in A-M.

=Tamar

[Reader in Invisible Writings]

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Reader in Invisible Writings

Post by Kristian Damm Jensen

Post by Carsten Pedersen

Post by Wonder
Okay here goes.....in an earlier thread I stated Twoflower was
probably oriental in origin possibly Chinese...ish...there were a
lot of responses mostly saying he wasnt.

Most responses said that *in TCOM* there is no indication that
Twoflower is Chinese. Rather, he's the arch typical Tourist.

Except that we are treated to a few scenes from the court on the
Counterweight Continent, which to me seems very oriental (japanese or
chinese) in style.
<snip>

That is from a later book (Mort IIRC) and so is not proof that TwoFlower
was, at the time COM was written, from a land like unto China/Japan.

The court was, but TCoM did give some indications. The Emperor of the
Agatean Empire contacted the Patrician about the tourist, and the
Patrician ordered Rincewind to be sure that Twoflower gave a good
report of Ankh-Morpork. Then the next message arrived, from Nine
Turning Mirrors, the Grand Vizier, and the Patrician agreed that
people ought to stay where they were put. Etc. It's all in the
first 40-odd pages of TCoM.

Post by Reader in Invisible Writings
Phases like 'ancient and cruel' 'Grand Visir' 'Boy Emperor' 'people
should remain where they are put' 'AM has nothing that they want - and
they have nothing that AM can afford' are evidence of something like
Imperial Japan or China

All from TCoM.

My point exactly.

Post by Richard Eney
When Rincewind is looking for Twoflower, he only asks "where is the
rich foreigner" - no details of a visibly different ethnic type are
given. So either people of Auriental appearance are common in A-M,
which could be true (in later books it is said that a few
wild-eyed refugees arrive and settle in as craftsmen), or Twoflower
looks just like the major ethnic groups already in A-M.

Possibly to someone on the north Mediterranean coast Mongols, Inuits,
Tibetans and Chinese look very much the same?

Post by Richard Eney
=Tamar

[Anery]

On 3. Okt, 23:17 h., Reader in Invisible Writings
<snip>

Post by Reader in Invisible Writings

Post by Richard Eney
When Rincewind is looking for Twoflower, he only asks "where is the
rich foreigner" - no details of a visibly different ethnic type are
given. So either people of Auriental appearance are common in A-M,
which could be true (in later books it is said that a few
wild-eyed refugees arrive and settle in as craftsmen), or Twoflower
looks just like the major ethnic groups already in A-M.

Possibly to someone on the north Mediterranean coast Mongols, Inuits,
Tibetans and Chinese look very much the same?

That too.
The word 'foreigner' may be a sufficient hint that Twoflower is
slightly different in appearance than the original inhabitants of AM.
There may be enough people around who look much the same. What is
really different and really matters about him from the POV of the
Morporkians is that he gives away vast amounts of money.
Specifically for Rincewind, there is a mention in TLC of him not being
racist. He divides people mainly according to whether they are an
immediate threat to him.

Besides, there is a variety of different species on DW. Compared to
differences among species, ethnical differences may seem
insignificant. Racism on DW has been substituted by speciesism.

Which is somewhat similar to the Agathean concept of "us versus
demons" that has been mentioned earlier in this thread.

Anery

[Richard Bos]

Post by Richard Eney

Post by Reader in Invisible Writings
Phases like 'ancient and cruel' 'Grand Visir' 'Boy Emperor' 'people
should remain where they are put' 'AM has nothing that they want - and
they have nothing that AM can afford' are evidence of something like
Imperial Japan or China

All from TCoM.
When Rincewind is looking for Twoflower, he only asks "where is the
rich foreigner" - no details of a visibly different ethnic type are
given. So either people of Auriental appearance are common in A-M,
which could be true (in later books it is said that a few
wild-eyed refugees arrive and settle in as craftsmen), or Twoflower
looks just like the major ethnic groups already in A-M.

Or possibly he is recognisably human. ISTM that if he'd been a common
type, Rincewind would've asked for the rich Klatchian/Uberwalder/Genuan,
and not for the rich (unspecified) foreigner. So, he's probably not a
common type of human, but clearly a human, and therefore not likely to
be specified further in a city where you commonly meet people of
completely different species.

Richard

[Graycat]

Post by Richard Eney
When Rincewind is looking for Twoflower, he only asks "where is the
rich foreigner" - no details of a visibly different ethnic type are
given. So either people of Auriental appearance are common in A-M,
which could be true (in later books it is said that a few
wild-eyed refugees arrive and settle in as craftsmen), or Twoflower
looks just like the major ethnic groups already in A-M.

How does that follow? Since all that is needed is "rich" and
"foreigner" - couldn't it be that Twoflower looks entirely unlike all
the people in AM - thus being easily identified as foreign?

[Len Oil]

Post by Graycat

Post by Richard Eney
When Rincewind is looking for Twoflower, he only asks "where is the
rich foreigner" - no details of a visibly different ethnic type are
given. So either people of Auriental appearance are common in A-M,
which could be true (in later books it is said that a few
wild-eyed refugees arrive and settle in as craftsmen), or Twoflower
looks just like the major ethnic groups already in A-M.

How does that follow? Since all that is needed is "rich" and
"foreigner" - couldn't it be that Twoflower looks entirely unlike all
the people in AM - thus being easily identified as foreign?

It occurs to me that the key describing word is actually "rich"...

There would be loads of 'foreigners'. Depending on who you talk to,
that might or might not include various ethnic groups. But in A-M,
among all foreigners, this one is the /rich/ one. Not all the ones that
have gravitated towards A-M to seek his/her fortune, but the one that
appears to be bent on /spending/ one.

Of course you could say that it is the one rich /foreigner/ as opposed
to the many rich /locals/, but do the Rusts and Selacis of Morpork
regularly visit the area that Twoflower is currently creating quite a
fuss in?


...let's call the whole thing off? ;)

[Richard Eney]

Post by Len Oil

Post by Graycat

Post by Richard Eney
When Rincewind is looking for Twoflower, he only asks "where is the
rich foreigner" - no details of a visibly different ethnic type are
given. So either people of Auriental appearance are common in A-M,
which could be true (in later books it is said that a few
wild-eyed refugees arrive and settle in as craftsmen), or Twoflower
looks just like the major ethnic groups already in A-M.

How does that follow? Since all that is needed is "rich" and
"foreigner" - couldn't it be that Twoflower looks entirely unlike all
the people in AM - thus being easily identified as foreign?

It occurs to me that the key describing word is actually "rich"...
There would be loads of 'foreigners'. Depending on who you talk to,
that might or might not include various ethnic groups. But in A-M,
among all foreigners, this one is the /rich/ one. Not all the ones that
have gravitated towards A-M to seek his/her fortune, but the one that
appears to be bent on /spending/ one.

You make an excellent point.

Post by Len Oil
Of course you could say that it is the one rich /foreigner/ as opposed
to the many rich /locals/, but do the Rusts and Selacis of Morpork
regularly visit the area that Twoflower is currently creating quite a
fuss in?

It doesn't seem likely, but A-M does seem to have an unusually mixed
crowd in all but the most unsavory places. Twoflower wasn't in the
depths of the Shades (well, not very often).

There's another element: clothing and gadgets.
Twoflower is dressed in an unusual manner. That alone would mark him
as a foreigner. Also, he wears glasses, which apparently were fairly
rare at the time if not unknown. In the subsequent decade(s), A-M
has become accustomed to imp-operated timepieces and has even surpassed
them with wind-up watches, which last longer. Iconographs have also
become common, but Twoflower's was very noticeable at the time.

Then there's the Luggage, but it wasn't continually present where
Twoflower went, so it would have been a less consistent marker for
foreignness.

=Tamar